4 ms·

I'd argue that is traditional feminism. The feminists of the 60's and 70's wouldn't be on board for biological men in women's sports or spaces.

RajT88 4y ago
Indeed, the TERFiest feminists out there are observed to often be first wave feminists.
- regularfry 4y ago
  I'm not certain the Suffragettes and their peers put their feelings about trans women on record, but with that generation being entirely dead now I'm not sure they're relevant.
DoctorOW 4y ago
I disagree. If you look at someone who could have a female face, female voice, female genitals, hormone levels marked by medical professionals, had massive changes in muscle/fat distribution. This person will be seen to most passersby as a woman, they will face the same systemic disadvantages feminists will have been arguing against for hundreds of years. To argue that oppressive institutions for women should not be removed but rather amended to oppressive for a subset of women is not in any way feminist.
carbadtraingood 4y ago
What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. History and relevant link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:~:text=Chromosome%20testing%20was%20introduced%20by,be%20inconclusive%20in%20identifying%20maleness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:....
- baremetal 4y ago
  >What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. that is a non-sequitur. the conclusion doesnt follow from the premises.
  - carbadtraingood 4y ago
    What conclusion? I just pointed out one historical attempt to define "biological man", and noted that it ended in failure?
    - baremetal 4y ago
      "What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome."
      - carbadtraingood 4y ago
        Right. That's the definition the international Olympic committee tried to enforce. The presence of a Y chromosome meant athletes weren't allowed to compete. The problem is that many women (who are not trans) have a Y chromosome. They are either XXY (Klinefelter), or XY (Swyer), XY mosaicism, or any of the other intersex conditions. Are those people not women? They may have fallopian tubes, a vagina, and a uterus, but also a Y chromosome.
  - DoctorOW 4y ago
    Pretty sure the question is rhetorical, friend.
wikfwikf 4y ago
Actually the feminists of the 60's and 70's debated this kind of issue at length and there was a diversity of opinion.

RajT88 4y ago

Indeed, the TERFiest feminists out there are observed to often be first wave feminists.

regularfry 4y ago
I'm not certain the Suffragettes and their peers put their feelings about trans women on record, but with that generation being entirely dead now I'm not sure they're relevant.

DoctorOW 4y ago

I disagree. If you look at someone who could have a female face, female voice, female genitals, hormone levels marked by medical professionals, had massive changes in muscle/fat distribution. This person will be seen to most passersby as a woman, they will face the same systemic disadvantages feminists will have been arguing against for hundreds of years. To argue that oppressive institutions for women should not be removed but rather amended to oppressive for a subset of women is not in any way feminist.

carbadtraingood 4y ago

What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. History and relevant link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:~:text=Chromosome%20testing%20was%20introduced%20by,be%20inconclusive%20in%20identifying%20maleness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:....

baremetal 4y ago
>What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. that is a non-sequitur. the conclusion doesnt follow from the premises.
- carbadtraingood 4y ago
  What conclusion? I just pointed out one historical attempt to define "biological man", and noted that it ended in failure?
  - baremetal 4y ago
    "What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome."
    - carbadtraingood 4y ago
      Right. That's the definition the international Olympic committee tried to enforce. The presence of a Y chromosome meant athletes weren't allowed to compete. The problem is that many women (who are not trans) have a Y chromosome. They are either XXY (Klinefelter), or XY (Swyer), XY mosaicism, or any of the other intersex conditions. Are those people not women? They may have fallopian tubes, a vagina, and a uterus, but also a Y chromosome.
- DoctorOW 4y ago
  Pretty sure the question is rhetorical, friend.

wikfwikf 4y ago

Actually the feminists of the 60's and 70's debated this kind of issue at length and there was a diversity of opinion.