5 ms·

The irony of the "TERF" abbreviation (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) is that many (most?) of the people being labelled as such are not radical feminists t

by stewx 4y ago

The irony of the "TERF" abbreviation (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) is that many (most?) of the people being labelled as such are not radical feminists to begin with.

RajT88 4y ago
There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg going on there. If you're a feminist, but trans-exclusionary, you qualify for the "radical" part.
- Chris2048 4y ago
  > you qualify for the "radical" part. why? Do feminists already "exclude" cis-men?
  - RajT88 4y ago
    The more extreme ones do, yes. "Men can't be feminists" is a hotly debated talking point in the feminist community.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      This seems self-contradictory. It's not really debated at all except on the extreme fringe. Hard to call that "hotly".
- willcipriano 4y ago
  I'd argue that is traditional feminism. The feminists of the 60's and 70's wouldn't be on board for biological men in women's sports or spaces.
  - RajT88 4y ago
    Indeed, the TERFiest feminists out there are observed to often be first wave feminists.
    - regularfry 4y ago
      I'm not certain the Suffragettes and their peers put their feelings about trans women on record, but with that generation being entirely dead now I'm not sure they're relevant.
  - DoctorOW 4y ago
    I disagree. If you look at someone who could have a female face, female voice, female genitals, hormone levels marked by medical professionals, had massive changes in muscle/fat distribution. This person will be seen to most passersby as a woman, they will face the same systemic disadvantages feminists will have been arguing against for hundreds of years. To argue that oppressive institutions for women should not be removed but rather amended to oppressive for a subset of women is not in any way feminist.
  - carbadtraingood 4y ago
    What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. History and relevant link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:~:text=Chromosome%20testing%20was%20introduced%20by,be%20inconclusive%20in%20identifying%20maleness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:....
    - baremetal 4y ago
      >What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. that is a non-sequitur. the conclusion doesnt follow from the premises.
      - carbadtraingood 4y ago
        What conclusion? I just pointed out one historical attempt to define "biological man", and noted that it ended in failure?
        baremetal 4y ago
        "What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome."
        carbadtraingood 4y ago
        Right. That's the definition the international Olympic committee tried to enforce. The presence of a Y chromosome meant athletes weren't allowed to compete. The problem is that many women (who are not trans) have a Y chromosome. They are either XXY (Klinefelter), or XY (Swyer), XY mosaicism, or any of the other intersex conditions. Are those people not women? They may have fallopian tubes, a vagina, and a uterus, but also a Y chromosome.
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    Actually the feminists of the 60's and 70's debated this kind of issue at length and there was a diversity of opinion.
fastball 4y ago
How are you defining "radical" and why would you preclude that term being used on the average so-labelled "TERF"?
- DanBC 4y ago
  If you don't know what "radical feminist" means, and that it does not mean "a feminist that is radical", this discussion is going to be hard fucking work.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    I think the point above is that many of the women who get called TERF are scarcely feminists at all, let alone feminists who believe in a radical reordering of society. Many people accused of being TERFs are actually conservative women who believe in traditional sex roles and don't believe that gender is independent of biological sex. It's an insult levied against all transphobic women.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      Except it's not an insult, unless it's levied at someone who is not, in fact, trans exclusionary (say, if calling a trans woman who thinks sharing your pronouns is a bit too much a TERF). I suppose it's also possible that some people who are trans exclusionary would take offense at being called (radical) feminists... But calling someone who is anti abortion "pro life" or even "anti choice" is not an insult, even if I find their position misguided and monstrous.
      - robonerd 4y ago
        > Except it's not an insult It is if it's said as one. Benign terms can become slurs when used in the right context with a particular tone.
        tsimionescu 4y ago
        Give me another example that is not a racial, religious or ableist slur.
ta8903 4y ago
That isn't specific to TERF, people just like to throw around insults like that and use them as a basis of their argument these days. You just notice it in this case because it's an acronym that defines itself. It's like incel or nazi/fascist, most people being called those things aren't actually celibate or nazis.

by stewx 4y ago

The irony of the "TERF" abbreviation (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) is that many (most?) of the people being labelled as such are not radical feminists to begin with.

RajT88 4y ago

There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg going on there. If you're a feminist, but trans-exclusionary, you qualify for the "radical" part.

Chris2048 4y ago
> you qualify for the "radical" part. why? Do feminists already "exclude" cis-men?
- RajT88 4y ago
  The more extreme ones do, yes. "Men can't be feminists" is a hotly debated talking point in the feminist community.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    This seems self-contradictory. It's not really debated at all except on the extreme fringe. Hard to call that "hotly".
willcipriano 4y ago
I'd argue that is traditional feminism. The feminists of the 60's and 70's wouldn't be on board for biological men in women's sports or spaces.
- RajT88 4y ago
  Indeed, the TERFiest feminists out there are observed to often be first wave feminists.
  - regularfry 4y ago
    I'm not certain the Suffragettes and their peers put their feelings about trans women on record, but with that generation being entirely dead now I'm not sure they're relevant.
- DoctorOW 4y ago
  I disagree. If you look at someone who could have a female face, female voice, female genitals, hormone levels marked by medical professionals, had massive changes in muscle/fat distribution. This person will be seen to most passersby as a woman, they will face the same systemic disadvantages feminists will have been arguing against for hundreds of years. To argue that oppressive institutions for women should not be removed but rather amended to oppressive for a subset of women is not in any way feminist.
- carbadtraingood 4y ago
  What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. History and relevant link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:~:text=Chromosome%20testing%20was%20introduced%20by,be%20inconclusive%20in%20identifying%20maleness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#:....
  - baremetal 4y ago
    >What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome, since they used to test Olympic athletes but found that the presence of a Y chromosome was not sufficient to identify men and women. (There are multiple genetic conditions that can cause this.) Many athletes had an unpleasant surprise at the hands of the IOC resulting in at least one suicide. that is a non-sequitur. the conclusion doesnt follow from the premises.
    - carbadtraingood 4y ago
      What conclusion? I just pointed out one historical attempt to define "biological man", and noted that it ended in failure?
      - baremetal 4y ago
        "What's a biological man? Not a Y chromosome."
        carbadtraingood 4y ago
        Right. That's the definition the international Olympic committee tried to enforce. The presence of a Y chromosome meant athletes weren't allowed to compete. The problem is that many women (who are not trans) have a Y chromosome. They are either XXY (Klinefelter), or XY (Swyer), XY mosaicism, or any of the other intersex conditions. Are those people not women? They may have fallopian tubes, a vagina, and a uterus, but also a Y chromosome.
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  Actually the feminists of the 60's and 70's debated this kind of issue at length and there was a diversity of opinion.

fastball 4y ago

How are you defining "radical" and why would you preclude that term being used on the average so-labelled "TERF"?

DanBC 4y ago
If you don't know what "radical feminist" means, and that it does not mean "a feminist that is radical", this discussion is going to be hard fucking work.
- robonerd 4y ago
  I think the point above is that many of the women who get called TERF are scarcely feminists at all, let alone feminists who believe in a radical reordering of society. Many people accused of being TERFs are actually conservative women who believe in traditional sex roles and don't believe that gender is independent of biological sex. It's an insult levied against all transphobic women.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    Except it's not an insult, unless it's levied at someone who is not, in fact, trans exclusionary (say, if calling a trans woman who thinks sharing your pronouns is a bit too much a TERF). I suppose it's also possible that some people who are trans exclusionary would take offense at being called (radical) feminists... But calling someone who is anti abortion "pro life" or even "anti choice" is not an insult, even if I find their position misguided and monstrous.
    - robonerd 4y ago
      > Except it's not an insult It is if it's said as one. Benign terms can become slurs when used in the right context with a particular tone.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        Give me another example that is not a racial, religious or ableist slur.

ta8903 4y ago

That isn't specific to TERF, people just like to throw around insults like that and use them as a basis of their argument these days. You just notice it in this case because it's an acronym that defines itself. It's like incel or nazi/fascist, most people being called those things aren't actually celibate or nazis.