8 ms·

Actually, that steering into the oncoming train is just one of several severe instances in that video: * Almost driving right into a barrier because road is cl

by deng 4y ago

Actually, that steering into the oncoming train is just one of several severe instances in that video: * Almost driving right into a barrier because road is closed: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=426 https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=426 * Choosing the wrong lane and getting confused: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=666 https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=666 * Trying to run a red light, right into traffic: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=732 https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=732 * Stopping in the middle of an intersection without reason: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=789 https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=789 * Choosing the wrong lane for a left turn: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=805 https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=805 * Constantly activating and deactivating the left turn-signal without reason (you can't even turn left there): https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=902 https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=902 * Unable to make a proper left turn, almost running into pedestrians: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=1033 https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=1033 All of this during maybe 30min of driving. Also, these are just the most severe instances, the Tesla just drives very awkwardly. It is changing lanes way too often (also on intersections) without rhyme or reason, and it weirdly creeps forward during red lights, getting very close to crossing traffic, for no reason at all. All in all, this is an incredibly poor performance.

spaceman_2020 4y ago
I just can’t understand why you’d give up control to a system that’s clearly still in beta. The cost of failure is way too high to take the risk.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  The whole point should be you don't. You are giving live feedback to the most advanced ML learning system ever (probably). Which hopefully in a few years will actually work. You are not (currently) using an autonomous car. If you think so you are an idiot.
  - yladiz 4y ago
    > You are not (currently) using an autonomous car. If you think so you are an idiot. Let's define autonomous as self driving. According to their marketing page[1]: > Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features, and full self-driving capabilities—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time. So it has capabilities of autonomous driving, which means a Tesla can be considered an autonomous car. Unless I'm an idiot for trusting what their marketing page tells me, of course. 1: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
    - salawat 4y ago
      >Unless I'm an idiot for trusting what their marketing page tells me, of course. Oh, you sweet summer child...
    - Someone 4y ago
      They phrase it weirdly (accidentally/possibly/probably/certainly (take your pick) in order to confuse the readers), but all that says is that they eventually will provide the software running on the hardware you buy today to actually do it.
      - yladiz 4y ago
        I disagree. When I read this: > Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features, and full self-driving capabilities—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time. What I understand is this: Tesla cars come with hardware capable of providing features for the Autopilot system and come with full self driving capabilities. The functionality related to these capabilities will be improved over time through software updates. If they meant that there will eventually be software that works with the hardware in the system, but there isn't software today, they should word it differently.
        capitalsigma 4y ago
        It is intended to be parsed as: The cars come with advanced hardware. What is the hardware capable of? It is capable of self driving. How will the hardware achieve the thing it is capable of? Through software updates (that have not yet landed)
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    > the most advanced ML learning system ever Imagine believing this.
    - discordance 4y ago
      I can believe this but also believe that our "most advanced ML systems" aren't up to the autonomous driving mark yet.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        You would have to believe that Tesla, particularly, had that system, and not Google or DoD. Tesla has something much more valuable: pigeons and dupes.
- ra7 4y ago
  Because they're led to believe all this public beta "testing" actually does something to improve the system. So they go out on roads, enable FSD and click the feedback button when it makes a mistake. It's pure theatre as it does nothing to a system fundamentally poor.
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    They /are/ the training data and trainers in a very literal sense. Every time they correct or take control over FSD I imagine it gets fed back into the training data. Will it ever create a fully self driving system? Maybe.
    - ra7 4y ago
      It's useful for polishing an already mature system. But FSD is poor at even doing the basics because of their (lack of) sensors. They need more than low quality 30 second video clips if they ever want a usable autonomous system.
    - jws 4y ago
      I’m sure other people use FSD as a bad chauffeur, but around town I use it when I’m willing to be extra alert and train it. There is a button I press when the car has messed up and the surrounding data gets sent back to the Tesla mothership as a defect. If I’m not willing to be in vigilance mode I just drive myself.
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        thanks for sharing your individual lack of experience with a broadly systemic issue (overconfidence in FSD, believing their marketing, etc)
    - thomaskcr 4y ago
      That's not true and Karpathy has confirmed it multiple times. They can create a fingerprint for data they want the system to feed back to the mothership and they may manually label datasets fed back through the report button on the MCU, but disengagements are not a signal they use at all.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- electric_mayhem 4y ago
  Straw man argument. Or, you know, maybe highly specific to lazy, edge-case idiots. Autopilot and fsd still both specifically require an attentive driver. Responsible adults who understand the systems will use them appropriately- and that might mean “not at all” in unusual/chaotic conditions. For the rest, there’s Darwin awards.
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    Your "straw man!" claims ignore that for every 'safety' related comment or action Tesla has done, they've had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. First there was zero monitoring of attention. No steering wheel torque, nothing. Then when pushed and threatened they added it, and set the "hands on steering wheel" interval to "ONCE every fifteen MINUTES". Then they had to be threatened to reduce that to a sensible value. All the while, Tesla: "the driver is only in the seat for legal purpose - the car is driving itself", or "use Summon to bring your car to you while you deal with a fussy child". So you can call them lazy edge-case idiots all you like. But you can't pretend that Tesla hasn't absolutely fostered and nurtured this culture, because they have.
    - electric_mayhem 4y ago
      I covered all that. Someone abandons common sense and abdicates responsibility for themselves in favor of believing the hype from a money-crazed billionaire? Prime candidates for Darwin awards, whether they own a tesla or not.
      - linspace 4y ago
        We are terrible at maintaining 100% concentration over extended periods of time while nothing is happening. People fall asleep driving. The mind starts to wander. We get distracted by our children. I don't think it's about believing the hype. It's about having a system put in place which encourages you to stop paying attention. I do think there have been great improvements in car safety thanks to AI. My car self brakes if it detects a pedestrian while I'm in reverse. It flashes lights in my side mirrors if another vehicle passes by. I think those systems are safety first and if you buy a car they are the responsibility of the car maker and not the buyer. I don't think you would expect people checking the airplane model when taking a flight. It's the responsibility of the airline and the manufacturer.
verisimi 4y ago
Jeez.. everyone's a critic... Tesla's got this! /s
- edgefield 4y ago
  Indeed. /$
- belter 4y ago
  The most sad and ironic about your comment, is that had you not added the /s tag, a few on this thread would assume you were serious :-)
synu 4y ago
That is terrifying! I try to stay away from Teslas I see on the road because they are completely unpredictable. I think I'd prefer being near a poor driver with their attention on the controls to Autopilot with a poor driver not paying attention. Any test on public roads of a system that performs like this should have a professional team actively, directly monitoring it. Not just any rando who happened to be able to afford a Tesla.
- jackmott 4y ago
- spike021 4y ago
  The number of times I see Teslas suddenly swerve partially into the next lane or stomp the brakes for no reason on the freeway with nobody around them is ridiculous. To top things off, one time I saw this happening on 280 in the Bay Area and I decided for safety's sake to pass them. I looked inside and it was a baby in a car seat in the back and a guy at the driver seat with both hands off the wheel holding onto a phone that he was absorbed by.
  - ezekiel11 4y ago
    there's a lot more in a youtube channel that was posted here a while back, the entire channel was dedicated to catching autopilot's mistakes. edit: whoa somebody is flagging all of critical comments of tesla!
- ezekiel11 4y ago
  [flagged]
- Handytinge 4y ago
  Meanwhile, I've been driving mine daily with autopilot for over a year daily, and can count on one hand the amount of times I've needed to take manual control. My anecdotal experience is they're incredibly predictable and with an attentive driver (as you should always be in any car), completely a non issue.
hatware 4y ago
The best part is people paid $12000 for the compute "hardware."
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Yet, all the cars have it. So they are also paying for all the other cars' hardware.
magwa101 4y ago
bigtex 4y ago
This is why I tell my wife to move over when you see a Tesla.
FireBeyond 4y ago
Musk, every year for the last seven years now: "Full Self Driving is coming, this year." Not even close.
- powerbroker 4y ago
  This is how he holds at bay the two factions of lawyers: 1) Those ready to file a misrepresentation or breach of warranty contract claims; 2) Those ready to file a products liability, wrongful death or failure to warn tort lawsuit.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    No. It is how he suckers people into paying for it now. Fending off lawyers is based on the fact it it was only Musk who said it, courts recognizing that only an idiot would believe him.
sirsinsalot 4y ago
The issue with these AI systems is that the corner cases in the real-world can be fatal. Humans are pretty good, on the whole, at dealing with corner cases.
- D-Coder 4y ago
  On the other hand, each human needs to individually figure out (or be taught) how to deal with each corner case. When an AI system learns it, the company can "teach" the entire fleet all at once.
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    And yet, all these individual Teslas make the same basic mistakes. What is it: lowest common denominator?
  - dcchambers 4y ago
    You can't make an apples-to-apples comparison between humans and the current generation of "AI". A human does not need to be taught how to handle every edge case because we have the ability and intuition to think on the spot and create solutions on the fly. It's incredible how fast our brain can take in information and formulate a plan. Meanwhile, if an "AI" has not specifically been trained against a certain variable or situation, it will have no idea how to handle it. It can't actually create a solution like a real human brain can.
- forgot-my-pw 4y ago
  We're just not great at reaction time and constant vigilance
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by deng 4y ago

spaceman_2020 4y ago

I just can’t understand why you’d give up control to a system that’s clearly still in beta. The cost of failure is way too high to take the risk.

cloutchaser 4y ago
The whole point should be you don't. You are giving live feedback to the most advanced ML learning system ever (probably). Which hopefully in a few years will actually work. You are not (currently) using an autonomous car. If you think so you are an idiot.
- yladiz 4y ago
  > You are not (currently) using an autonomous car. If you think so you are an idiot. Let's define autonomous as self driving. According to their marketing page[1]: > Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features, and full self-driving capabilities—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time. So it has capabilities of autonomous driving, which means a Tesla can be considered an autonomous car. Unless I'm an idiot for trusting what their marketing page tells me, of course. 1: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
  - salawat 4y ago
    >Unless I'm an idiot for trusting what their marketing page tells me, of course. Oh, you sweet summer child...
  - Someone 4y ago
    They phrase it weirdly (accidentally/possibly/probably/certainly (take your pick) in order to confuse the readers), but all that says is that they eventually will provide the software running on the hardware you buy today to actually do it.
    - yladiz 4y ago
      I disagree. When I read this: > Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features, and full self-driving capabilities—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time. What I understand is this: Tesla cars come with hardware capable of providing features for the Autopilot system and come with full self driving capabilities. The functionality related to these capabilities will be improved over time through software updates. If they meant that there will eventually be software that works with the hardware in the system, but there isn't software today, they should word it differently.
      - capitalsigma 4y ago
        It is intended to be parsed as: The cars come with advanced hardware. What is the hardware capable of? It is capable of self driving. How will the hardware achieve the thing it is capable of? Through software updates (that have not yet landed)
- jeffbee 4y ago
  > the most advanced ML learning system ever Imagine believing this.
  - discordance 4y ago
    I can believe this but also believe that our "most advanced ML systems" aren't up to the autonomous driving mark yet.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      You would have to believe that Tesla, particularly, had that system, and not Google or DoD. Tesla has something much more valuable: pigeons and dupes.
ra7 4y ago
Because they're led to believe all this public beta "testing" actually does something to improve the system. So they go out on roads, enable FSD and click the feedback button when it makes a mistake. It's pure theatre as it does nothing to a system fundamentally poor.
- bitexploder 4y ago
  They /are/ the training data and trainers in a very literal sense. Every time they correct or take control over FSD I imagine it gets fed back into the training data. Will it ever create a fully self driving system? Maybe.
  - ra7 4y ago
    It's useful for polishing an already mature system. But FSD is poor at even doing the basics because of their (lack of) sensors. They need more than low quality 30 second video clips if they ever want a usable autonomous system.
  - jws 4y ago
    I’m sure other people use FSD as a bad chauffeur, but around town I use it when I’m willing to be extra alert and train it. There is a button I press when the car has messed up and the surrounding data gets sent back to the Tesla mothership as a defect. If I’m not willing to be in vigilance mode I just drive myself.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      thanks for sharing your individual lack of experience with a broadly systemic issue (overconfidence in FSD, believing their marketing, etc)
  - thomaskcr 4y ago
    That's not true and Karpathy has confirmed it multiple times. They can create a fingerprint for data they want the system to feed back to the mothership and they may manually label datasets fed back through the report button on the MCU, but disengagements are not a signal they use at all.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
electric_mayhem 4y ago
Straw man argument. Or, you know, maybe highly specific to lazy, edge-case idiots. Autopilot and fsd still both specifically require an attentive driver. Responsible adults who understand the systems will use them appropriately- and that might mean “not at all” in unusual/chaotic conditions. For the rest, there’s Darwin awards.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  Your "straw man!" claims ignore that for every 'safety' related comment or action Tesla has done, they've had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. First there was zero monitoring of attention. No steering wheel torque, nothing. Then when pushed and threatened they added it, and set the "hands on steering wheel" interval to "ONCE every fifteen MINUTES". Then they had to be threatened to reduce that to a sensible value. All the while, Tesla: "the driver is only in the seat for legal purpose - the car is driving itself", or "use Summon to bring your car to you while you deal with a fussy child". So you can call them lazy edge-case idiots all you like. But you can't pretend that Tesla hasn't absolutely fostered and nurtured this culture, because they have.
  - electric_mayhem 4y ago
    I covered all that. Someone abandons common sense and abdicates responsibility for themselves in favor of believing the hype from a money-crazed billionaire? Prime candidates for Darwin awards, whether they own a tesla or not.
    - linspace 4y ago
      We are terrible at maintaining 100% concentration over extended periods of time while nothing is happening. People fall asleep driving. The mind starts to wander. We get distracted by our children. I don't think it's about believing the hype. It's about having a system put in place which encourages you to stop paying attention. I do think there have been great improvements in car safety thanks to AI. My car self brakes if it detects a pedestrian while I'm in reverse. It flashes lights in my side mirrors if another vehicle passes by. I think those systems are safety first and if you buy a car they are the responsibility of the car maker and not the buyer. I don't think you would expect people checking the airplane model when taking a flight. It's the responsibility of the airline and the manufacturer.

verisimi 4y ago

Jeez.. everyone's a critic... Tesla's got this! /s

edgefield 4y ago
Indeed. /$
belter 4y ago
The most sad and ironic about your comment, is that had you not added the /s tag, a few on this thread would assume you were serious :-)

synu 4y ago

That is terrifying! I try to stay away from Teslas I see on the road because they are completely unpredictable. I think I'd prefer being near a poor driver with their attention on the controls to Autopilot with a poor driver not paying attention. Any test on public roads of a system that performs like this should have a professional team actively, directly monitoring it. Not just any rando who happened to be able to afford a Tesla.

jackmott 4y ago
spike021 4y ago
The number of times I see Teslas suddenly swerve partially into the next lane or stomp the brakes for no reason on the freeway with nobody around them is ridiculous. To top things off, one time I saw this happening on 280 in the Bay Area and I decided for safety's sake to pass them. I looked inside and it was a baby in a car seat in the back and a guy at the driver seat with both hands off the wheel holding onto a phone that he was absorbed by.
- ezekiel11 4y ago
  there's a lot more in a youtube channel that was posted here a while back, the entire channel was dedicated to catching autopilot's mistakes. edit: whoa somebody is flagging all of critical comments of tesla!
ezekiel11 4y ago
[flagged]
Handytinge 4y ago
Meanwhile, I've been driving mine daily with autopilot for over a year daily, and can count on one hand the amount of times I've needed to take manual control. My anecdotal experience is they're incredibly predictable and with an attentive driver (as you should always be in any car), completely a non issue.

hatware 4y ago

The best part is people paid $12000 for the compute "hardware."

ncmncm 4y ago
Yet, all the cars have it. So they are also paying for all the other cars' hardware.

magwa101 4y ago

bigtex 4y ago

This is why I tell my wife to move over when you see a Tesla.

FireBeyond 4y ago

Musk, every year for the last seven years now: "Full Self Driving is coming, this year." Not even close.

powerbroker 4y ago
This is how he holds at bay the two factions of lawyers: 1) Those ready to file a misrepresentation or breach of warranty contract claims; 2) Those ready to file a products liability, wrongful death or failure to warn tort lawsuit.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  No. It is how he suckers people into paying for it now. Fending off lawyers is based on the fact it it was only Musk who said it, courts recognizing that only an idiot would believe him.

sirsinsalot 4y ago

The issue with these AI systems is that the corner cases in the real-world can be fatal. Humans are pretty good, on the whole, at dealing with corner cases.

D-Coder 4y ago
On the other hand, each human needs to individually figure out (or be taught) how to deal with each corner case. When an AI system learns it, the company can "teach" the entire fleet all at once.
- rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  And yet, all these individual Teslas make the same basic mistakes. What is it: lowest common denominator?
- dcchambers 4y ago
  You can't make an apples-to-apples comparison between humans and the current generation of "AI". A human does not need to be taught how to handle every edge case because we have the ability and intuition to think on the spot and create solutions on the fly. It's incredible how fast our brain can take in information and formulate a plan. Meanwhile, if an "AI" has not specifically been trained against a certain variable or situation, it will have no idea how to handle it. It can't actually create a solution like a real human brain can.
forgot-my-pw 4y ago
We're just not great at reaction time and constant vigilance

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]