4 ms·

I don't know a thing about Vauld, so no accusations here, but surely people realize that anything offering +18% on what you can get from a bank will often be a

by sgt101 4y ago

I don't know a thing about Vauld, so no accusations here, but surely people realize that anything offering +18% on what you can get from a bank will often be a ponzi scheme?

rvnx 4y ago
They rather say it's a "high yield investment program"
lmm 4y ago
Many of the individual entities are honest as far as it goes (but often the one paying you 18% is just taking your funds and "investing" them in the one paying 19%, hence the current contagion). The crypto ecosystem as a whole is the ponzi scheme, and it's only going to collapse when people lose faith in all of it, bitcoin proper included.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  The price will go lower and blocks will still be produced and function just as well
  - lmm 4y ago
    The system will keep working on the way down (at least until the mining world gets small enough that someone can do a 51% attack), but once the expectation of future growth disappears, the price will crater and never come back and the whole thing will be fairly harmless. I guess the network will still work for people buying drugs, but do people even still do that?
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      Its a data store where you pay once for people to store thousands of copies of anything in perpetuity. Retrieval is free. The people storing copies don't listen to each other, and so have incentives not to delete content. Network will be there. Cheaper the better. Just an option that has some value, not a killer app, doesn’t need to be. Funny system since you can put any junk there.
      - lmm 4y ago
        > Its a data store where you pay once for people to store thousands of copies of anything in perpetuity. Retrieval is free. The people storing copies don't listen to each other, and so have incentives not to delete content. Only as long as they can make enough money off it. At some point miners will start compacting the history they keep or just straight up turn off their systems.
        yieldcrv 4y ago
        yeah, the same as any other cloud storage. I'm content with the much greater redundancy for some copies to persist and be recovered, not a guarantee, more guarantees than every other option. the unique issue is how a 51% attack could rewrite history, but that's also mitigated by how often people branch bitcoin from various states in history to their own new chains that have their own miners, inheriting and persevering all the stored stuff.
jbjohns 4y ago
Often? What conceivable (legal) system could consistently generate such returns and not manage to capture all capital on earth eventually? The best financial vehicle ever conceived has about 9% per year over the last 50 years or so.
- rchaud 4y ago
  We live in a world of wildcat brokerages and self-styled Warren Buffets on Tiktok. People who are in it largely all think they can time their exit before the Ponzi collapses.
  - sgt101 4y ago
    It's both sad and just that they are (almost always) wrong.
- sgt101 4y ago
  There are ways to get that sort of return legally, but you need a lot of collateral and a strong stomach for risk. Basically leverage hard and invest in something risky - you multiply the return (which should be good already) but also multiply the risk. If you know what you are doing and have luck you can make very high returns. Mostly people don't know what they are doing though and get into big trouble.
  - FabHK 4y ago
    > and a strong stomach for risk. Well, obviously. You can gamble on red in the casino and get 100% return (with a 50%+ risk of losing everything). The point is that these scammers presented the 18% APY gambles as virtually risk free "investments".
JohnHaugeland 4y ago
"Surely crypto fans will recognize that the math under this claim does not make mathematical sense?" Is that something that you see them doing elsewhere?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gruez 4y ago
>surely people realize that anything offering +18% on what you can get from a bank will often be a ponzi scheme? except in this case it's not really a ponzi scheme, more of high risk investment (think junk bonds) gone bad.
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  even after so many examples it baffles me how people keep falling for this. people just refuse to think about the cashflows. no its not a high risk investment. no actual business goes to these crypto firms asking them for a such a ridiculous loan. so where does the money come from then? a steady stream of investment from idiots of course. they pay the early investors using the later depositors money. eventually you run out of fools and then this happens
yieldcrv 4y ago
A lot of crypto products use interest rate style benefits because that’s what people recognize and understand Behind the scenes many of them are making money from volume capture and tiny but lucrative transaction fees, no different than Robinhood or Citadel, the perpetual nature just isn’t guaranteed and longer dated payment promises are perilous. Lets say an organization is really making 100% ROI but doesnt want shareholders, they offer a competitive 18% return in a bond and thats that. Many more people believe the same you do if you told them a higher and truer number. “35%? Obvious scam”. There are many market inefficiencies that scale up to hundreds of millions and billions of dollars People don't understand “senior convertible debt” they understand “18%” Many yield bearing products in the crypto space offered floating interest rates that adjust to market realities, these fixed interest rates ones are the ones unable to adjust.

by sgt101 4y ago

I don't know a thing about Vauld, so no accusations here, but surely people realize that anything offering +18% on what you can get from a bank will often be a ponzi scheme?

rvnx 4y ago

They rather say it's a "high yield investment program"

lmm 4y ago

Many of the individual entities are honest as far as it goes (but often the one paying you 18% is just taking your funds and "investing" them in the one paying 19%, hence the current contagion). The crypto ecosystem as a whole is the ponzi scheme, and it's only going to collapse when people lose faith in all of it, bitcoin proper included.

yieldcrv 4y ago
The price will go lower and blocks will still be produced and function just as well
- lmm 4y ago
  The system will keep working on the way down (at least until the mining world gets small enough that someone can do a 51% attack), but once the expectation of future growth disappears, the price will crater and never come back and the whole thing will be fairly harmless. I guess the network will still work for people buying drugs, but do people even still do that?
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    Its a data store where you pay once for people to store thousands of copies of anything in perpetuity. Retrieval is free. The people storing copies don't listen to each other, and so have incentives not to delete content. Network will be there. Cheaper the better. Just an option that has some value, not a killer app, doesn’t need to be. Funny system since you can put any junk there.
    - lmm 4y ago
      > Its a data store where you pay once for people to store thousands of copies of anything in perpetuity. Retrieval is free. The people storing copies don't listen to each other, and so have incentives not to delete content. Only as long as they can make enough money off it. At some point miners will start compacting the history they keep or just straight up turn off their systems.
      - yieldcrv 4y ago
        yeah, the same as any other cloud storage. I'm content with the much greater redundancy for some copies to persist and be recovered, not a guarantee, more guarantees than every other option. the unique issue is how a 51% attack could rewrite history, but that's also mitigated by how often people branch bitcoin from various states in history to their own new chains that have their own miners, inheriting and persevering all the stored stuff.

jbjohns 4y ago

Often? What conceivable (legal) system could consistently generate such returns and not manage to capture all capital on earth eventually? The best financial vehicle ever conceived has about 9% per year over the last 50 years or so.

rchaud 4y ago
We live in a world of wildcat brokerages and self-styled Warren Buffets on Tiktok. People who are in it largely all think they can time their exit before the Ponzi collapses.
- sgt101 4y ago
  It's both sad and just that they are (almost always) wrong.
sgt101 4y ago
There are ways to get that sort of return legally, but you need a lot of collateral and a strong stomach for risk. Basically leverage hard and invest in something risky - you multiply the return (which should be good already) but also multiply the risk. If you know what you are doing and have luck you can make very high returns. Mostly people don't know what they are doing though and get into big trouble.
- FabHK 4y ago
  > and a strong stomach for risk. Well, obviously. You can gamble on red in the casino and get 100% return (with a 50%+ risk of losing everything). The point is that these scammers presented the 18% APY gambles as virtually risk free "investments".

JohnHaugeland 4y ago

"Surely crypto fans will recognize that the math under this claim does not make mathematical sense?" Is that something that you see them doing elsewhere?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

gruez 4y ago

>surely people realize that anything offering +18% on what you can get from a bank will often be a ponzi scheme? except in this case it's not really a ponzi scheme, more of high risk investment (think junk bonds) gone bad.

cuteboy19 4y ago
even after so many examples it baffles me how people keep falling for this. people just refuse to think about the cashflows. no its not a high risk investment. no actual business goes to these crypto firms asking them for a such a ridiculous loan. so where does the money come from then? a steady stream of investment from idiots of course. they pay the early investors using the later depositors money. eventually you run out of fools and then this happens

yieldcrv 4y ago

A lot of crypto products use interest rate style benefits because that’s what people recognize and understand Behind the scenes many of them are making money from volume capture and tiny but lucrative transaction fees, no different than Robinhood or Citadel, the perpetual nature just isn’t guaranteed and longer dated payment promises are perilous. Lets say an organization is really making 100% ROI but doesnt want shareholders, they offer a competitive 18% return in a bond and thats that. Many more people believe the same you do if you told them a higher and truer number. “35%? Obvious scam”. There are many market inefficiencies that scale up to hundreds of millions and billions of dollars People don't understand “senior convertible debt” they understand “18%” Many yield bearing products in the crypto space offered floating interest rates that adjust to market realities, these fixed interest rates ones are the ones unable to adjust.