5 ms·

No "science" here, all anecdote built from boats, skis, and a moderate amount general use: Flat head: the bigger the better in this format, and simplicity has

No "science" here, all anecdote built from boats, skis, and a moderate amount general use: Flat head: the bigger the better in this format, and simplicity has it's place, but easy to destroy in a variety of situations. Also, when you're out of options cutting a flathead slot into a destroyed screw might just work. The classic 6.5/10 Phillips: everywhere, but rather bad. You get a finite but unknown number of interactions with Phillips heads before it suddenly strips out and you're sad. This includes both the screws and the bits, Philips bits are the only ones I've ever had that shatter, the rest fairly predictably deform and can be retired. Square (Robertson): bettr than the above. However, they're also like hex (Allen) but less good. Hex (Allen): one of my favorites, and they scale rather well. BUT, if you strip it at all, maybe even once, you're done, the angles are shallow enough that there's no coming back, you've cut out a circle. Posix: like Phillips if you squint, but if you actually use the right bit and, most importantly, push down harder than seems reasonable times 2, you'll pretty much never have a problem. Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages

dagss 4y ago
Here in Norway Torx is everywhere, almost all new screws and bits. It is like Torx is USB 3.0 and everything else is "legacy". Torx just works. Never an issue (except smallest bit size TX10 can wear out quickly). I guess disadvantage is you need to have them in 4-5 sizes depending on screw size, like Hex, but that is easily worth it.
- ungawatkt 4y ago
  Fair! I'm speaking from a US perspective here for torx availability, and largely interacting with things I didn't get to decide the hardware on myself.
  - danachow 4y ago
    Oh in that case you're just very apparently 40 years behind?, there are kits sold in supermarkets in the US that carry Torx bits. They are not uncommon at all. In addition to automotive it is all over appliances, electronics (eg hard drives), laptops, small electronic devices including smart phones. The Husky toolkit I purchased from Home Depot 25 years ago included Torx bits. Here is even a tamper resistant kit you can get at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-L-Key-Set-9-Piece-HLAMTXK9PC/207190358 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-... I am actually stupefied that someone can differentiate Philips from Pozidrive but isn't aware you can pick up a Torx driver set from any Walmart or Harbor Freight.
    - ungawatkt 4y ago
      The "use things I don't choose the hardware for" is the more relavent part. And I didn't mean the torx is actually hard to find in stores, rather that I don't see it much in the wild. I have torx bits I'd love to use more, but minus some small electronics I rarely run into the screws in the wild. Even electronics I see hex far more often. Like I said, just what I see in my activities
    - eredengrin 4y ago
      Okay you can find the bits, but what about the screws? I was specifically looking for them a while back and turns out the vast majority of screws that I was finding at stores (home depot, lowes, various local places) were still phillips. The ones that were robertsons or torx were the wrong configuration (metal, size, head type, etc). I ended up buying some online instead. Just to show some data, go to home depot page and look at the screws categorized by drive style: I'm seeing ~2600 phillips heads, ~500 star (which appears to be torx under a different name), 55 square, and 27 torx (under the torx name).
      - danachow 4y ago
        >> At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages That was the original comment, that is all I responded to - which is just a completely ridiculous. And if you work on cars, you'll encounter the fasteners all the time. But there's a very popular construction screw sold at Home Depot, etc that uses a "star" bit. The overall fastener selection at Home Depot isn't amazing, never has been - they've never been much of a hardware store. Check Grainger or something.
      - antisthenes 4y ago
        > Okay you can find the bits, but what about the screws? I was specifically looking for them a while back and turns out the vast majority of screws that I was finding at stores (home depot, lowes, various local places) were still phillips. Home Depot / Lowes is at least 50% torx screws these days. They're impossible to miss. Not sure where you're looking, but I'm talking about the actual physical store. Especially if you look at screws intended for decking/lumber, it'll be an even higher % than 50.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Torx seems to be used on electronics everywhere they don’t want users to touch.
  - xxs 4y ago
    torx is super common, most of my drivers are "secure" torx as well. So not sure about the touching part, either
  - ce4 4y ago
    Torx are readily available everywhere here. Even discounter chains like Aldi have seasonal offerings (toolset containing Torx screwdrivers). I think you mean Apple's special pentalobe design for the iPhone (maybe also macbooks now)
- exmadscientist 4y ago
  > smallest bit size TX10 The smallest Torx size is a T1 (or TX1, whatever)! This size is best described as "pray that you never have to use it". I think I did... once... or maybe that was just staring at the driver wondering what it's for. Still, we have 16 different Torx sizes around here. Sixteen! Also, there's a thing called Torx Plus out there. You can buy Torx Plus screws and things will work out for you, but don't buy Torx Plus bits unless you know what you're doing. That said, if you do use Torx Plus bits with Torx Plus screws, it works really well.
  - xxs 4y ago
    T6 and T8 are actually quite common (T5 less so), yet T10 is far from the smallest one being widely used. Side note: mistakenly using a smaller torx driver demolishes both the screw head and the driver... and it usually fits well.
    - rascul 4y ago
      > Side note: mistakenly using a smaller torx driver demolishes both the screw head and the driver... and it usually fits well. Ahh yes, I learned this the hard way. T20 bit for a T25 screw, for example. It might work for a few screws then all of a sudden the next one gets destroyed.
    - usrusr 4y ago
      That side note problem surely ranks as the #1 downside of torx. The practical solution seems to lie in restricting torx sizes to a much smaller subset, e.g. jump right up to T25 if T10 isn't enough (I think some fields actually do this?). But if you have the full set of drivers you can still mess up, no doubt. I wonder if the pin/hole tolerances of the "tamper proof" variants are tight enough to keep the slightly smaller out? Then it's not so much about keeping out people who don't own the right tools (gatekeeping) but about keeping out hands that happen to not hold the right tool at the moment, which is very well possible even if one should know better, and the right tool is available as well. You should never blame the user for a mistake that could have been prevented by better UI.
- madaxe_again 4y ago
  They all wear out eventually, if you use them - but much more slowly than Philips or posidrive. Even a chewed up torx bit will still usually do the job - but a chewed up cross is useless.
  - ungawatkt 4y ago
    I'd _very_ lightly push back on that for a posidrive, but it has a lot of asterisks. IF you can keep enough pressure on a posi, I've not seen issues. but if you can't it's failure case approaches the dreaded Phillips. And "enough pressure" is in the range of 170lbs of dude pushing down for really difficult situations in my experience, so yeah, "*"s abound.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  From an automotive point-of-view TORX like Allen / "inhex" suffers because you can get a bunch of crap in the head and make it easier to get a bad fit with your driver and damage the fastener head. External/female TORX is also problematic because, you guessed it, you can get all sorts of gunk in the splines.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
You missed out JIS which looks like Phillips but is just a little different.
danachow 4y ago
Where do you live that Torx are hard to find? They are nothing short of a standard on automotive applications, and any "mechanics" screwdriver, like the very popular Megapro in North America will carry Torx bits - but any big box store selection will include them.
rsync 4y ago
"Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantage ..." In the US Torx is everywhere. In fact, when I consider doing any kind of construction project or building outside of the US (in Europe, for instance) one of the major downsides would have to be my near total reliance on GRK screws and Simpson fasteners. I would not want to have to build things without easy access to products from those two firms.
- xxs 4y ago
  If you need anything reliable - "Spax" [0] [0]: https://www.spax.com/en/products/screwfinder/ https://www.spax.com/en/products/screwfinder/
- walterbell 4y ago
  Does GRK use standard Torx bits, or supply their own proprietary variant? Is there a good online US source for GRK screws? e.g. GRK RSS14212HP from a random seller is about 2X normal price, https://www.amazon.com/GRK-RSS14212HP-HandyPak-Structural-Package/dp/B001SFXI78 https://www.amazon.com/GRK-RSS14212HP-HandyPak-Structural-Pa... SPAX sells direct via Amazon, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DSSLP8M/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DSSLP8M/
  - tristor 4y ago
    In the US the best option (although expensive) is products from Fasten Master. For ledger bolts, their LedgerLok product is far superior to the alternatives and their TimberLok product is a /structural/ wood screw. My family is in construction and I called my dad up after snapping the heads off too many torx drive deck screws and he suggested these. I’ve /NEVER/ broken one and I exclusively use a 20V impact driver on max when driving fasteners. GRK is my preferred second choice and I find it better than Grip-Rite, DeckMate, or Spax. Another thing is that construction screws are usually more durable than deck screws, anymore, as deck screws are generally ceramic now to prevent corrosion but weaker shaft strength. All of these brands are available at any home store in the US pretty much.

dagss 4y ago

Here in Norway Torx is everywhere, almost all new screws and bits. It is like Torx is USB 3.0 and everything else is "legacy". Torx just works. Never an issue (except smallest bit size TX10 can wear out quickly). I guess disadvantage is you need to have them in 4-5 sizes depending on screw size, like Hex, but that is easily worth it.

ungawatkt 4y ago
Fair! I'm speaking from a US perspective here for torx availability, and largely interacting with things I didn't get to decide the hardware on myself.
- danachow 4y ago
  Oh in that case you're just very apparently 40 years behind?, there are kits sold in supermarkets in the US that carry Torx bits. They are not uncommon at all. In addition to automotive it is all over appliances, electronics (eg hard drives), laptops, small electronic devices including smart phones. The Husky toolkit I purchased from Home Depot 25 years ago included Torx bits. Here is even a tamper resistant kit you can get at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-L-Key-Set-9-Piece-HLAMTXK9PC/207190358 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-... I am actually stupefied that someone can differentiate Philips from Pozidrive but isn't aware you can pick up a Torx driver set from any Walmart or Harbor Freight.
  - ungawatkt 4y ago
    The "use things I don't choose the hardware for" is the more relavent part. And I didn't mean the torx is actually hard to find in stores, rather that I don't see it much in the wild. I have torx bits I'd love to use more, but minus some small electronics I rarely run into the screws in the wild. Even electronics I see hex far more often. Like I said, just what I see in my activities
  - eredengrin 4y ago
    Okay you can find the bits, but what about the screws? I was specifically looking for them a while back and turns out the vast majority of screws that I was finding at stores (home depot, lowes, various local places) were still phillips. The ones that were robertsons or torx were the wrong configuration (metal, size, head type, etc). I ended up buying some online instead. Just to show some data, go to home depot page and look at the screws categorized by drive style: I'm seeing ~2600 phillips heads, ~500 star (which appears to be torx under a different name), 55 square, and 27 torx (under the torx name).
    - danachow 4y ago
      >> At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages That was the original comment, that is all I responded to - which is just a completely ridiculous. And if you work on cars, you'll encounter the fasteners all the time. But there's a very popular construction screw sold at Home Depot, etc that uses a "star" bit. The overall fastener selection at Home Depot isn't amazing, never has been - they've never been much of a hardware store. Check Grainger or something.
    - antisthenes 4y ago
      > Okay you can find the bits, but what about the screws? I was specifically looking for them a while back and turns out the vast majority of screws that I was finding at stores (home depot, lowes, various local places) were still phillips. Home Depot / Lowes is at least 50% torx screws these days. They're impossible to miss. Not sure where you're looking, but I'm talking about the actual physical store. Especially if you look at screws intended for decking/lumber, it'll be an even higher % than 50.
Gigachad 4y ago
Torx seems to be used on electronics everywhere they don’t want users to touch.
- xxs 4y ago
  torx is super common, most of my drivers are "secure" torx as well. So not sure about the touching part, either
- ce4 4y ago
  Torx are readily available everywhere here. Even discounter chains like Aldi have seasonal offerings (toolset containing Torx screwdrivers). I think you mean Apple's special pentalobe design for the iPhone (maybe also macbooks now)
exmadscientist 4y ago
> smallest bit size TX10 The smallest Torx size is a T1 (or TX1, whatever)! This size is best described as "pray that you never have to use it". I think I did... once... or maybe that was just staring at the driver wondering what it's for. Still, we have 16 different Torx sizes around here. Sixteen! Also, there's a thing called Torx Plus out there. You can buy Torx Plus screws and things will work out for you, but don't buy Torx Plus bits unless you know what you're doing. That said, if you do use Torx Plus bits with Torx Plus screws, it works really well.
- xxs 4y ago
  T6 and T8 are actually quite common (T5 less so), yet T10 is far from the smallest one being widely used. Side note: mistakenly using a smaller torx driver demolishes both the screw head and the driver... and it usually fits well.
  - rascul 4y ago
    > Side note: mistakenly using a smaller torx driver demolishes both the screw head and the driver... and it usually fits well. Ahh yes, I learned this the hard way. T20 bit for a T25 screw, for example. It might work for a few screws then all of a sudden the next one gets destroyed.
  - usrusr 4y ago
    That side note problem surely ranks as the #1 downside of torx. The practical solution seems to lie in restricting torx sizes to a much smaller subset, e.g. jump right up to T25 if T10 isn't enough (I think some fields actually do this?). But if you have the full set of drivers you can still mess up, no doubt. I wonder if the pin/hole tolerances of the "tamper proof" variants are tight enough to keep the slightly smaller out? Then it's not so much about keeping out people who don't own the right tools (gatekeeping) but about keeping out hands that happen to not hold the right tool at the moment, which is very well possible even if one should know better, and the right tool is available as well. You should never blame the user for a mistake that could have been prevented by better UI.
madaxe_again 4y ago
They all wear out eventually, if you use them - but much more slowly than Philips or posidrive. Even a chewed up torx bit will still usually do the job - but a chewed up cross is useless.
- ungawatkt 4y ago
  I'd _very_ lightly push back on that for a posidrive, but it has a lot of asterisks. IF you can keep enough pressure on a posi, I've not seen issues. but if you can't it's failure case approaches the dreaded Phillips. And "enough pressure" is in the range of 170lbs of dude pushing down for really difficult situations in my experience, so yeah, "*"s abound.
inferiorhuman 4y ago
From an automotive point-of-view TORX like Allen / "inhex" suffers because you can get a bunch of crap in the head and make it easier to get a bad fit with your driver and damage the fastener head. External/female TORX is also problematic because, you guessed it, you can get all sorts of gunk in the splines.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

You missed out JIS which looks like Phillips but is just a little different.

danachow 4y ago

Where do you live that Torx are hard to find? They are nothing short of a standard on automotive applications, and any "mechanics" screwdriver, like the very popular Megapro in North America will carry Torx bits - but any big box store selection will include them.

rsync 4y ago

"Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantage ..." In the US Torx is everywhere. In fact, when I consider doing any kind of construction project or building outside of the US (in Europe, for instance) one of the major downsides would have to be my near total reliance on GRK screws and Simpson fasteners. I would not want to have to build things without easy access to products from those two firms.

xxs 4y ago
If you need anything reliable - "Spax" [0] [0]: https://www.spax.com/en/products/screwfinder/ https://www.spax.com/en/products/screwfinder/
walterbell 4y ago
Does GRK use standard Torx bits, or supply their own proprietary variant? Is there a good online US source for GRK screws? e.g. GRK RSS14212HP from a random seller is about 2X normal price, https://www.amazon.com/GRK-RSS14212HP-HandyPak-Structural-Package/dp/B001SFXI78 https://www.amazon.com/GRK-RSS14212HP-HandyPak-Structural-Pa... SPAX sells direct via Amazon, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DSSLP8M/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DSSLP8M/
- tristor 4y ago
  In the US the best option (although expensive) is products from Fasten Master. For ledger bolts, their LedgerLok product is far superior to the alternatives and their TimberLok product is a /structural/ wood screw. My family is in construction and I called my dad up after snapping the heads off too many torx drive deck screws and he suggested these. I’ve /NEVER/ broken one and I exclusively use a 20V impact driver on max when driving fasteners. GRK is my preferred second choice and I find it better than Grip-Rite, DeckMate, or Spax. Another thing is that construction screws are usually more durable than deck screws, anymore, as deck screws are generally ceramic now to prevent corrosion but weaker shaft strength. All of these brands are available at any home store in the US pretty much.