4 ms·

A lot of the internet woodworkers like to act like Robertson or Torx is the only way to go but after about 10 years of reasonably serious hobby/DIY experience I

A lot of the internet woodworkers like to act like Robertson or Torx is the only way to go but after about 10 years of reasonably serious hobby/DIY experience I can honestly say that I have never found a #2 Phillips head to be deficient. I actually prefer them because (1) the screws are cheaper, and (2) everybody has a Philips head screwdriver laying around. When you need to adjust something in a pinch, #2 Phillips is king.

klysm 4y ago
I’m not sure they’re ever really deficient - isn’t the problem more that they’re really easy to strip?
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  I would count easy to strip as deficient. But I almost never strip them. If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage.
  - recursive 4y ago
    In that case, my technique is bad. But only for Philips. My technique is apparently fine for torx.
  - stephen_g 4y ago
    No, there are lots of situations where Phillips just aren't good enough. We have marine applications with small, 316 stainless screws into metal where they'd commonly get a bit gummed up and become extremely easy to strip and get stuck. Since switching everything to Torx (or hex for larger bolts), we've never had a problem with any screws getting stuck or damaged. Same manufacturer of the screws, same sizes, same materials, just different head. Now I use Torx or hex head screws for my personal projects too because they're so much easier to work with once you have some drivers.
  - exmadscientist 4y ago
    > If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage. Or you're asking for more than the screws are good for. I work in R&D. I've had to do things with fasteners that no one should have to do... and I know this because we redesigned that BS as soon as we could. Phillips has given me plenty of trouble in anything harder than light duty use. Torx and hex have both always been fine. Even if hex is theoretically not very good, somehow it's always good enough in the real world. (The availability of hex ball drivers probably accounts for at least some of this. But now there are Torx ball drivers too!) I've got JIS Phillips, I've got American Phillips, I've got DIN/ISO Phillips, I can tell the difference between them, I know when to use all of them, and I can confidently say I hate 'em all.
  - thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
    Software engineers should understand that one of the great tragedies of life is having to interact with things that an incompetent person touched before you.
andreareina 4y ago
My problem with Phillips is: is this screw actually Phillips, or is it JIS or Pozidriv?
- wrinklz 4y ago
  JIS drivers work extremely well to break frozen Phillips screws. I've also used JIS screwdrivers to fix partially stripped Phillips screws: Tap on the stripped screws with a JIS screwdriver and hammer to reform the head, then turn. Or even better, use an impact JIS driver. Saved my skin many times on my motorcycles. https://www.amazon.com/Vessel-125943-P3x150-Impacta-Screwdriver/dp/B003BGTTSE/ https://www.amazon.com/Vessel-125943-P3x150-Impacta-Screwdri...
- BenjiWiebe 4y ago
  Does it have another cross lightly engraved on the head, 45 degrees off from the main cross? Then it's Pozidriv. Does it have a small circular dot in one corner of the head? Then it's JIS. There may be the occasional unmarked JIS screw though.
wrinklz 4y ago
After 40 years of cursing at stripped Phillips heads, I finally discovered the Japanese Industrial Standard. https://www.mcmaster.com/jis-(japanese-industrial-standard)-screwdrivers/ https://www.mcmaster.com/jis-(japanese-industrial-standard)-... They are designed NOT to cam, and grip Phillips screws like a champ. You can use JIS drivers on Phillips screws, even though they're technically a different standard. Apparently one of the best-kept secrets of my lifetime. I can't get those 40 years back, but your life just got better. You are welcome.
- YLE118 4y ago
  Unfortunately the JIS standard was phased out and merged with the ISO standard for Phillips screws. I'm sure there's a detail I'm missing about how that was done, but it's harder to find JIS stuff than it used to be. Supposedly the new Phillips standard includes part of what made JIS work so well. Some older friends who told me stories about people ruining JIS fasteners on bikes and motorcycles because they assumed it was just a Philips. I think the depth of the point is part of the distinction and it causes the drivers to not have adequate contact with the screw head.
  - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
    Yes, I see that fairly often. A lot of powersport carburetors are Japanese (even for non Japan brands of ATVs) and use JIS screws. And very very often the owner has tried to take it apart with a Phillips screwdriver and damaged the fasteners as a result. I have a JIS screwdriver from Vessel that works really well.
- tzs 4y ago
  I have one screwdriver that works miracles like that on Philips head screws--the one on my ~40 year old Victorinox Swiss army knife. I've always wondered what the heck they did different from every other screwdriver I've ever owned to make theirs work so much better. Now I'm wondering if they are actually following some other standard like that Japanese one. Speaking of screwdrivers, anyone else here also have way more screwdrivers than you can explain? I can only remember ever buying a small number of screwdrivers, but I have several times that number. Most of them don't match any of the others in handle shape and color and material, so it isn't like I bought a couple or so sets that I've forgotten buying. I seem to have somehow individually acquired a bunch of screwdrivers. I'm not now nor have ever been a very DIY person and all my screwing needs are easily met by just a handful of screwdrivers.
xxs 4y ago
you can safely use #2 in hardwood (say cherry) w/o pre-drilling?
eemil 4y ago
In my experience, Philips is not really that bad as long as you're using the right sized driver. I've come across a lot of screws that look like they should take a #1 bit, on account of being so small. But they actually have a #2 head, which can be driven with a #1 driver, with a lot of effort and damage to the screw head. For such a common tool, this is a pretty major flaw in usability.

klysm 4y ago

I’m not sure they’re ever really deficient - isn’t the problem more that they’re really easy to strip?

ARandomerDude 4y ago
I would count easy to strip as deficient. But I almost never strip them. If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage.
- recursive 4y ago
  In that case, my technique is bad. But only for Philips. My technique is apparently fine for torx.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  No, there are lots of situations where Phillips just aren't good enough. We have marine applications with small, 316 stainless screws into metal where they'd commonly get a bit gummed up and become extremely easy to strip and get stuck. Since switching everything to Torx (or hex for larger bolts), we've never had a problem with any screws getting stuck or damaged. Same manufacturer of the screws, same sizes, same materials, just different head. Now I use Torx or hex head screws for my personal projects too because they're so much easier to work with once you have some drivers.
- exmadscientist 4y ago
  > If you're stripping screws, either your technique is bad or the screws are garbage. Or you're asking for more than the screws are good for. I work in R&D. I've had to do things with fasteners that no one should have to do... and I know this because we redesigned that BS as soon as we could. Phillips has given me plenty of trouble in anything harder than light duty use. Torx and hex have both always been fine. Even if hex is theoretically not very good, somehow it's always good enough in the real world. (The availability of hex ball drivers probably accounts for at least some of this. But now there are Torx ball drivers too!) I've got JIS Phillips, I've got American Phillips, I've got DIN/ISO Phillips, I can tell the difference between them, I know when to use all of them, and I can confidently say I hate 'em all.
- thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
  Software engineers should understand that one of the great tragedies of life is having to interact with things that an incompetent person touched before you.

andreareina 4y ago

My problem with Phillips is: is this screw actually Phillips, or is it JIS or Pozidriv?

wrinklz 4y ago
JIS drivers work extremely well to break frozen Phillips screws. I've also used JIS screwdrivers to fix partially stripped Phillips screws: Tap on the stripped screws with a JIS screwdriver and hammer to reform the head, then turn. Or even better, use an impact JIS driver. Saved my skin many times on my motorcycles. https://www.amazon.com/Vessel-125943-P3x150-Impacta-Screwdriver/dp/B003BGTTSE/ https://www.amazon.com/Vessel-125943-P3x150-Impacta-Screwdri...
BenjiWiebe 4y ago
Does it have another cross lightly engraved on the head, 45 degrees off from the main cross? Then it's Pozidriv. Does it have a small circular dot in one corner of the head? Then it's JIS. There may be the occasional unmarked JIS screw though.

wrinklz 4y ago

After 40 years of cursing at stripped Phillips heads, I finally discovered the Japanese Industrial Standard. https://www.mcmaster.com/jis-(japanese-industrial-standard)-screwdrivers/ https://www.mcmaster.com/jis-(japanese-industrial-standard)-... They are designed NOT to cam, and grip Phillips screws like a champ. You can use JIS drivers on Phillips screws, even though they're technically a different standard. Apparently one of the best-kept secrets of my lifetime. I can't get those 40 years back, but your life just got better. You are welcome.

YLE118 4y ago
Unfortunately the JIS standard was phased out and merged with the ISO standard for Phillips screws. I'm sure there's a detail I'm missing about how that was done, but it's harder to find JIS stuff than it used to be. Supposedly the new Phillips standard includes part of what made JIS work so well. Some older friends who told me stories about people ruining JIS fasteners on bikes and motorcycles because they assumed it was just a Philips. I think the depth of the point is part of the distinction and it causes the drivers to not have adequate contact with the screw head.
- BenjiWiebe 4y ago
  Yes, I see that fairly often. A lot of powersport carburetors are Japanese (even for non Japan brands of ATVs) and use JIS screws. And very very often the owner has tried to take it apart with a Phillips screwdriver and damaged the fasteners as a result. I have a JIS screwdriver from Vessel that works really well.
tzs 4y ago
I have one screwdriver that works miracles like that on Philips head screws--the one on my ~40 year old Victorinox Swiss army knife. I've always wondered what the heck they did different from every other screwdriver I've ever owned to make theirs work so much better. Now I'm wondering if they are actually following some other standard like that Japanese one. Speaking of screwdrivers, anyone else here also have way more screwdrivers than you can explain? I can only remember ever buying a small number of screwdrivers, but I have several times that number. Most of them don't match any of the others in handle shape and color and material, so it isn't like I bought a couple or so sets that I've forgotten buying. I seem to have somehow individually acquired a bunch of screwdrivers. I'm not now nor have ever been a very DIY person and all my screwing needs are easily met by just a handful of screwdrivers.

xxs 4y ago

you can safely use #2 in hardwood (say cherry) w/o pre-drilling?

eemil 4y ago

In my experience, Philips is not really that bad as long as you're using the right sized driver. I've come across a lot of screws that look like they should take a #1 bit, on account of being so small. But they actually have a #2 head, which can be driven with a #1 driver, with a lot of effort and damage to the screw head. For such a common tool, this is a pretty major flaw in usability.