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>> But the audio quality is a noticeable upgrade from my iPhone 8 Is this still true with latest iPhone? I would expect that iPhone hardware is not a limiting

>> But the audio quality is a noticeable upgrade from my iPhone 8 Is this still true with latest iPhone? I would expect that iPhone hardware is not a limiting factor for audio quality (assuming a wired adaptor for HiFi headphones)

capitalsigma 4y ago
Yeah, it's really hard to believe that... compute power is the limiting factor on audio? In 2022? On a $1k piece of hardware? Over Bluetooth, in both cases?
KerrAvon 4y ago
No idea, but it doesn’t surprise me that a dedicated audio player could theoretically do a lot better. Just as one would generally expect a DSLR to beat the iPhone for picture quality.
- iasay 4y ago
  Well it depends on the material really. You can take a good photo on a phone and a crappy one on a DSLR. You can listen to crap music on a dedicated audio player too…
don-code 4y ago
While I can't speak to either the iPhone or the Walkman, the quality of the digital-to-analog converter is significantly more important than raw horsepower or other capabilities. Where they're analog devices, there's much less to be said about the "it's just zeroes and ones" argument. Some older devices I've owned had good-quality DACs - a Palm Treo being the best. My current ThinkPad has a downright awful DAC, to the point where music sounds _better_ over my Bluetooth headphones (Audio-Technica ATH-M50xBT) than when plugged straight in. The quality issues are even more egregious for the cheap dock I use for my work MacBook Pro, which puts out so much electrical noise over the headphone jack as to be annoying even in in Zoom calls.
- erwincoumans 4y ago
  Interesting. There are indeed small external DAC's that can be plugged into the USB adapter, for example DragonFly Red or Cobalt DAC. [EDIT: looks like the Apple 3.5 mm headphone dongle has a good DAC, see other comments by hug/JohnJamesRambo below]
- andai 4y ago
  One of my high school teachers soldered some kind of extension cord onto the pins at the bottom of his iPod because that signal bypasses the crappy amp on the device.
hug 4y ago
> Is this still true with latest iPhone? The latest iPhone doesn't have a DAC in it for headphones. The little 3.5mm-to-lightning dongle is active -- it contains a tiny DAC/amp powered by the lightning port. Is the tiny lightning dongle a good DAC? The answer is largely "it's fine". Anyone who isn't on the cork-sniffing side of audiophile trends will find it acceptable, assuming the amp is capable of driving the load of whatever headphones you're plugging into it.
- JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
  The dongle always impresses me as slaying so many specialized DACs. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-apple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...
  - brewdad 4y ago
    It really is amazing the Apple, the poster child for overpriced dongles and accessories, has built such an incredible device for $9 MSRP.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  My experience was (and one of the reasons I miss the headphone jack is) that the dongle quality + Apple ear buds wasn't as good as the DAC the older iPhones had.
  - hug 4y ago
    I don't want to deny that, when picking up the two & due to some trickery of your own brain, you prefer the iPhone 8, but I do doubt is that it is because of a measurable difference in audio quality.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Perhaps, but I was comparing Apple ear buds with the 3.5mm jack vs lightning ones. Presumably the drivers and whatnot would be similar. In general I don't think audio quality has ever been particularly important to Apple. The iPhone (and all smartphones really) is a jack of all trades gizmo not a device for high quality audio playback. I remember when I had a first gen iPhone and the call quality was atrocious with AT&T compared to my RAZR on Verizon. You get used to it over time but back to back it was pretty dramatic.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
em500 4y ago
I really doubt that the Walkman's audio quality is "better" than the iPhone 8's in any objective sense. > I’m not an audiophile, and I’m sure said people would blanch if they read about the files I play. But the audio quality is a noticeable upgrade from my iPhone 8. It sounds so much clearer, especially in the midrange. Its EQ settings also add extra sparkle and pop, for want of better words! It’s the biggest uplift in sound I’ve experienced since I bought AKG monitors for home. According to gsmarena measurements, the output of the iPhone 8 is extremely accurate across the entire spectrum[1]. Sampling a few gsmarena reviews, this is also true for a typical modern Samsung or Xiaomi phone, or even an ancient iPhone 4s. I believe accurate audio quality is indeed a solved problem, and what the author's describe as an upgrade in quality is just more pleasantly tuned (though distorted) EQ settings (c.f. the "warm" sound of vinyl vs accurate redbook CD-audio). [1] https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8-review-1664p7.php# https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8-review-1664p7.php#

capitalsigma 4y ago

Yeah, it's really hard to believe that... compute power is the limiting factor on audio? In 2022? On a $1k piece of hardware? Over Bluetooth, in both cases?

KerrAvon 4y ago

No idea, but it doesn’t surprise me that a dedicated audio player could theoretically do a lot better. Just as one would generally expect a DSLR to beat the iPhone for picture quality.

iasay 4y ago
Well it depends on the material really. You can take a good photo on a phone and a crappy one on a DSLR. You can listen to crap music on a dedicated audio player too…

don-code 4y ago

While I can't speak to either the iPhone or the Walkman, the quality of the digital-to-analog converter is significantly more important than raw horsepower or other capabilities. Where they're analog devices, there's much less to be said about the "it's just zeroes and ones" argument. Some older devices I've owned had good-quality DACs - a Palm Treo being the best. My current ThinkPad has a downright awful DAC, to the point where music sounds _better_ over my Bluetooth headphones (Audio-Technica ATH-M50xBT) than when plugged straight in. The quality issues are even more egregious for the cheap dock I use for my work MacBook Pro, which puts out so much electrical noise over the headphone jack as to be annoying even in in Zoom calls.

erwincoumans 4y ago
Interesting. There are indeed small external DAC's that can be plugged into the USB adapter, for example DragonFly Red or Cobalt DAC. [EDIT: looks like the Apple 3.5 mm headphone dongle has a good DAC, see other comments by hug/JohnJamesRambo below]
andai 4y ago
One of my high school teachers soldered some kind of extension cord onto the pins at the bottom of his iPod because that signal bypasses the crappy amp on the device.

hug 4y ago

> Is this still true with latest iPhone? The latest iPhone doesn't have a DAC in it for headphones. The little 3.5mm-to-lightning dongle is active -- it contains a tiny DAC/amp powered by the lightning port. Is the tiny lightning dongle a good DAC? The answer is largely "it's fine". Anyone who isn't on the cork-sniffing side of audiophile trends will find it acceptable, assuming the amp is capable of driving the load of whatever headphones you're plugging into it.

JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
The dongle always impresses me as slaying so many specialized DACs. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-apple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...
- brewdad 4y ago
  It really is amazing the Apple, the poster child for overpriced dongles and accessories, has built such an incredible device for $9 MSRP.
inferiorhuman 4y ago
My experience was (and one of the reasons I miss the headphone jack is) that the dongle quality + Apple ear buds wasn't as good as the DAC the older iPhones had.
- hug 4y ago
  I don't want to deny that, when picking up the two & due to some trickery of your own brain, you prefer the iPhone 8, but I do doubt is that it is because of a measurable difference in audio quality.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    Perhaps, but I was comparing Apple ear buds with the 3.5mm jack vs lightning ones. Presumably the drivers and whatnot would be similar. In general I don't think audio quality has ever been particularly important to Apple. The iPhone (and all smartphones really) is a jack of all trades gizmo not a device for high quality audio playback. I remember when I had a first gen iPhone and the call quality was atrocious with AT&T compared to my RAZR on Verizon. You get used to it over time but back to back it was pretty dramatic.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

em500 4y ago

I really doubt that the Walkman's audio quality is "better" than the iPhone 8's in any objective sense. > I’m not an audiophile, and I’m sure said people would blanch if they read about the files I play. But the audio quality is a noticeable upgrade from my iPhone 8. It sounds so much clearer, especially in the midrange. Its EQ settings also add extra sparkle and pop, for want of better words! It’s the biggest uplift in sound I’ve experienced since I bought AKG monitors for home. According to gsmarena measurements, the output of the iPhone 8 is extremely accurate across the entire spectrum[1]. Sampling a few gsmarena reviews, this is also true for a typical modern Samsung or Xiaomi phone, or even an ancient iPhone 4s. I believe accurate audio quality is indeed a solved problem, and what the author's describe as an upgrade in quality is just more pleasantly tuned (though distorted) EQ settings (c.f. the "warm" sound of vinyl vs accurate redbook CD-audio). [1] https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8-review-1664p7.php# https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8-review-1664p7.php#