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I've used Duolingo for about a year and they definitely have a lot of stuff like that built into the gamification. Often times, though, playing the game they de

I've used Duolingo for about a year and they definitely have a lot of stuff like that built into the gamification. Often times, though, playing the game they designed is counterproductive. I've broken 100+ day streaks twice now because I realized I was only putting in the minimum for the sake of the game. I've found it better to take a month off here and there so that I can come back and focus on my actual goals. There's also the cracked lesson feature. They aligned cracked lessons to urgency gamification instead of something more sound like delayed repetition. As a result, you'll often have cracked lessons which you've long since permanently committed to memory and will be spending 15 minutes on easy lessons rather than doing the important, harder lessons.

matthewdgreen 4y ago
Does the app work? I don’t mean the gamification: I mean, are you becoming fluent (or even just literate) in the language outside of the app?
- sshine 4y ago
  > Does the app work? Not in my experience. Anki + language-partner sessions + evening classes did it for me.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    I supplement Duolingo with Anki, otherwise I would forget the vocabulary.
- dealpete 4y ago
  It is a good way to get started with a new language, but you won’t make it to fluency. They don’t have enough content for that.
- Shacklz 4y ago
  Fluent with Duolingo alone? Very unlikely in my experience. From my point of view, you can make it to A1/A2 proficiency in a language with Duolingo alone - after that, it gets quite hard. Teaching grammar and conjugations isn't its forté, without resources outside of Duolingo it will get rather tricky. That being said, I still use Duolingo for my daily dose of language exposure - but without Anki (for vocabulary), youtube videos (to explain various specific topics) and evening courses (which help a lot by giving a structured approach on what to learn in what order), my learning curve would probably flatten out.
  - cmg 4y ago
    I'm using Duolingo to learn Russian because my spouse is Russian and I want to communicate better with his family (especially his grandmother, who speaks less English than I do Russian). After nearly a year, I can help set up for dinner ("Where are the plates?" "There is bread on the table already" "Do you want tea?") and similar things. Now I'm getting into genitives and such, and that's where Duolingo really seems to not do well. It doesn't explain why a word appears a certain way in a tense, it just makes you memorize that it does. Sometimes I'll ask my husband why, and he just says "Well, because that's the way it is". Of course I'll use the same explanation when my MIL asks me something about English.
    - some_random 4y ago
      Duolingo is best when you're the average American, with a few years of language courses in high school that you've half forgotten. As you go, it all kinda fills in. I tried learning Arabic from scratch and while it's fantastic for learning the alphabet and memorizing words, it became obvious fast that I'd need to do some reading outside the app.
    - meatmanek 4y ago
      I don't know if they have changed this in the few years since I let my Duolingo streak lapse, but they actually have decent explanatory text for each lesson, it's just not (or wasn't) accessible from the mobile app; you had to use the desktop website to see it.
      - herewulf 4y ago
        Yes, this text has been accessible on mobile for over a year now.
    - toast0 4y ago
      > Sometimes I'll ask my husband why, and he just says "Well, because that's the way it is". Of course I'll use the same explanation when my MIL asks me something about English. Most native speakers are useless for why. You ideally want someone who learned both your native language and the language in question. Then they can often explain things relative to your language, and you'll learn things about your language and the language in question. Look for language notes from Hong Kong; I had found a university site with very helpful information on French many moons ago, but I can't find it again, it was written in fluent English, but with insights on English usage that were unlikely to occur to native English-only speakers.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  Tourist fluent, maybe. Enough to go to a country and get by on the patience of the natives. I did French all through high school and most of college, then learned firsthand that I was maybe 25% as fluent as I assumed. Then I went home and went through the entirety of the Duolingo curriculum in a few months, without learning anything new (a couple new vocab words, maybe). So, you could view this in two ways: either it's a scam that tricks you into wasting a lot of time viewing ads or paying a subscription without delivering on its promise. Or, you could see it as a shortcut that's worth at least a couple years of classes. But, at least in my experience, it does not enable you to speak a language with fluency. (Which makes total sense if you step back and look past the marketing promises. Of course 20 minutes a day with a cartoon bird is not going to replace actually living in a country and being immersed in the language 24/7)
- dotancohen 4y ago
  After a few weeks with the Greek course and adding important words to Anki, I was able to communicate with Greeks who know no other language - which I was surprised to find many of. The Arabic course is less useful by itself, only because Arabic itself is very dependent on dialect and Duolingo teaches a mix of Egyptian / MSA. But the Duolingo course did provide a terrific cornerstone to learn the specific dialect that I am interested in, so it had real value. You _will_ need to supplement the vocabulary with Anki or another tool. You won't become fluent, but you will get a good basis to start talking with people comfortably. Becoming fluent depends on keeping up that talking. I would say that Duolingo gives a terrific starting point, at least for the three languages I've learned with it.
- calahad 4y ago
  The app works great for getting you to an intermediate level, which is all it claims to do.
- diydsp 4y ago
  no way. i learned german through immersion, then tried to learn the much simpler Spanish via Duolingo. key problems: 1. not enough speaking practice. speaking is _at least_ 50% of the skill but about 10% of DL. 2. Waay too much time spent setting up each question w animations etc. not enoimugh learning time. much more repetition is required. 3. way too general learning. people have varying needs for language. e.g. work, travel, family, research/reading. teaching must be tailored to these.
  - hombre_fatal 4y ago
    Well, nothing is going to compete with immersion. And immersion isn't going to help you unless you have enough understanding to build atop of. Else you're like a dog listening to steam of human sounds: "Not walk, not walk, not walk, ...WALK!! (I know that one!), not walk, not walk, ..." In my experience, Duolingo and other entry level apps can get you there especially for the person who hasn't learned a second language thus doesn't even know where to begin.
    - diydsp 4y ago
      You're right. My skill was hard-won! And it showed me how to make DL so much more practical! My first 2 suggestions are simple parameter changes to their existing software :)
- capitalsigma 4y ago
  An app is only ever going to be an adjunct to a real course taught by a real human. As an adjunct, it works pretty well for teaching vocabulary and practicing in between classes.
- OJFord 4y ago
  I found it a very effective way of learning a new script (devanagari) but I'd have really struggled to answer sentence based questions without studying at all outside the app. (I'm reading Snell's textbooks on Hindi, and have finished the Duolingo course.)
- emursebrian 4y ago
  Duolingo and other apps are good to learn a little bit about the language, but what you really need to do to become fluent is to have conversations with native speakers, read newspapers and immerse yourself in the culture as much as possible. Luckily, that is a lot easier these days with the internet!
  - jamiek88 4y ago
    Yeah two months into my two years in Madrid my Spanish improved more than it did in two years of lessons and online learning as well as three years of school Spanish. I can still understand a lot of Spanish and when I’m warmed up and have been back a few days my conversational level comes back.
sshine 4y ago
Yes, it seems that Duolingo will encourage and reward you for using the app, even though your rate of learning is not increased more by this. It seems that the better language learning app would rather ask you to use the app less, if you make more progress when you do use the app. The collection of recently failed flashcards that you can iterate is a great feature. It is somehow an automatic feature of spaced-repetition apps, since recently flashcards are shuffled into the stack at a higher frequency.
emursebrian 4y ago
For me Duolingo's gamification is better than nothing but it's really not that fun. It wasn't a motivating factor to keep learning. Spaced repletion algorithms can be really helpful, but they can also be a hindrance. Duolingo treats the user like they don't know better than the algorithm. The language learner needs to be the one in the driver's seat with the algorithms and course material being there to support the learner. Gamification is great, but it should only be there to help the user stay motivated meeting their goals. Like you mentioned, if you've already mastered something having it presented in your study session is actively working against meeting your goals because you're spending time studying something you don't need to. I don't see studying everyday as an end-goal, though studying every day can be helpful for retention. You should feel rewarded but not punished when you "loose your streak".

matthewdgreen 4y ago

Does the app work? I don’t mean the gamification: I mean, are you becoming fluent (or even just literate) in the language outside of the app?

sshine 4y ago
> Does the app work? Not in my experience. Anki + language-partner sessions + evening classes did it for me.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  I supplement Duolingo with Anki, otherwise I would forget the vocabulary.
dealpete 4y ago
It is a good way to get started with a new language, but you won’t make it to fluency. They don’t have enough content for that.
Shacklz 4y ago
Fluent with Duolingo alone? Very unlikely in my experience. From my point of view, you can make it to A1/A2 proficiency in a language with Duolingo alone - after that, it gets quite hard. Teaching grammar and conjugations isn't its forté, without resources outside of Duolingo it will get rather tricky. That being said, I still use Duolingo for my daily dose of language exposure - but without Anki (for vocabulary), youtube videos (to explain various specific topics) and evening courses (which help a lot by giving a structured approach on what to learn in what order), my learning curve would probably flatten out.
- cmg 4y ago
  I'm using Duolingo to learn Russian because my spouse is Russian and I want to communicate better with his family (especially his grandmother, who speaks less English than I do Russian). After nearly a year, I can help set up for dinner ("Where are the plates?" "There is bread on the table already" "Do you want tea?") and similar things. Now I'm getting into genitives and such, and that's where Duolingo really seems to not do well. It doesn't explain why a word appears a certain way in a tense, it just makes you memorize that it does. Sometimes I'll ask my husband why, and he just says "Well, because that's the way it is". Of course I'll use the same explanation when my MIL asks me something about English.
  - some_random 4y ago
    Duolingo is best when you're the average American, with a few years of language courses in high school that you've half forgotten. As you go, it all kinda fills in. I tried learning Arabic from scratch and while it's fantastic for learning the alphabet and memorizing words, it became obvious fast that I'd need to do some reading outside the app.
  - meatmanek 4y ago
    I don't know if they have changed this in the few years since I let my Duolingo streak lapse, but they actually have decent explanatory text for each lesson, it's just not (or wasn't) accessible from the mobile app; you had to use the desktop website to see it.
    - herewulf 4y ago
      Yes, this text has been accessible on mobile for over a year now.
  - toast0 4y ago
    > Sometimes I'll ask my husband why, and he just says "Well, because that's the way it is". Of course I'll use the same explanation when my MIL asks me something about English. Most native speakers are useless for why. You ideally want someone who learned both your native language and the language in question. Then they can often explain things relative to your language, and you'll learn things about your language and the language in question. Look for language notes from Hong Kong; I had found a university site with very helpful information on French many moons ago, but I can't find it again, it was written in fluent English, but with insights on English usage that were unlikely to occur to native English-only speakers.
karaterobot 4y ago
Tourist fluent, maybe. Enough to go to a country and get by on the patience of the natives. I did French all through high school and most of college, then learned firsthand that I was maybe 25% as fluent as I assumed. Then I went home and went through the entirety of the Duolingo curriculum in a few months, without learning anything new (a couple new vocab words, maybe). So, you could view this in two ways: either it's a scam that tricks you into wasting a lot of time viewing ads or paying a subscription without delivering on its promise. Or, you could see it as a shortcut that's worth at least a couple years of classes. But, at least in my experience, it does not enable you to speak a language with fluency. (Which makes total sense if you step back and look past the marketing promises. Of course 20 minutes a day with a cartoon bird is not going to replace actually living in a country and being immersed in the language 24/7)
dotancohen 4y ago
After a few weeks with the Greek course and adding important words to Anki, I was able to communicate with Greeks who know no other language - which I was surprised to find many of. The Arabic course is less useful by itself, only because Arabic itself is very dependent on dialect and Duolingo teaches a mix of Egyptian / MSA. But the Duolingo course did provide a terrific cornerstone to learn the specific dialect that I am interested in, so it had real value. You _will_ need to supplement the vocabulary with Anki or another tool. You won't become fluent, but you will get a good basis to start talking with people comfortably. Becoming fluent depends on keeping up that talking. I would say that Duolingo gives a terrific starting point, at least for the three languages I've learned with it.
calahad 4y ago
The app works great for getting you to an intermediate level, which is all it claims to do.
diydsp 4y ago
no way. i learned german through immersion, then tried to learn the much simpler Spanish via Duolingo. key problems: 1. not enough speaking practice. speaking is _at least_ 50% of the skill but about 10% of DL. 2. Waay too much time spent setting up each question w animations etc. not enoimugh learning time. much more repetition is required. 3. way too general learning. people have varying needs for language. e.g. work, travel, family, research/reading. teaching must be tailored to these.
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Well, nothing is going to compete with immersion. And immersion isn't going to help you unless you have enough understanding to build atop of. Else you're like a dog listening to steam of human sounds: "Not walk, not walk, not walk, ...WALK!! (I know that one!), not walk, not walk, ..." In my experience, Duolingo and other entry level apps can get you there especially for the person who hasn't learned a second language thus doesn't even know where to begin.
  - diydsp 4y ago
    You're right. My skill was hard-won! And it showed me how to make DL so much more practical! My first 2 suggestions are simple parameter changes to their existing software :)
capitalsigma 4y ago
An app is only ever going to be an adjunct to a real course taught by a real human. As an adjunct, it works pretty well for teaching vocabulary and practicing in between classes.
OJFord 4y ago
I found it a very effective way of learning a new script (devanagari) but I'd have really struggled to answer sentence based questions without studying at all outside the app. (I'm reading Snell's textbooks on Hindi, and have finished the Duolingo course.)
emursebrian 4y ago
Duolingo and other apps are good to learn a little bit about the language, but what you really need to do to become fluent is to have conversations with native speakers, read newspapers and immerse yourself in the culture as much as possible. Luckily, that is a lot easier these days with the internet!
- jamiek88 4y ago
  Yeah two months into my two years in Madrid my Spanish improved more than it did in two years of lessons and online learning as well as three years of school Spanish. I can still understand a lot of Spanish and when I’m warmed up and have been back a few days my conversational level comes back.

sshine 4y ago

Yes, it seems that Duolingo will encourage and reward you for using the app, even though your rate of learning is not increased more by this. It seems that the better language learning app would rather ask you to use the app less, if you make more progress when you do use the app. The collection of recently failed flashcards that you can iterate is a great feature. It is somehow an automatic feature of spaced-repetition apps, since recently flashcards are shuffled into the stack at a higher frequency.

emursebrian 4y ago

For me Duolingo's gamification is better than nothing but it's really not that fun. It wasn't a motivating factor to keep learning. Spaced repletion algorithms can be really helpful, but they can also be a hindrance. Duolingo treats the user like they don't know better than the algorithm. The language learner needs to be the one in the driver's seat with the algorithms and course material being there to support the learner. Gamification is great, but it should only be there to help the user stay motivated meeting their goals. Like you mentioned, if you've already mastered something having it presented in your study session is actively working against meeting your goals because you're spending time studying something you don't need to. I don't see studying everyday as an end-goal, though studying every day can be helpful for retention. You should feel rewarded but not punished when you "loose your streak".