5 ms·

Stroustrup's C++ book stands out in my mind as one of the few programming books that I own (possibly the only one) that does not use a fixed-width font for code

by tjr 15y ago

Stroustrup's C++ book stands out in my mind as one of the few programming books that I own (possibly the only one) that does not use a fixed-width font for code examples, and I find it very unpleasant to look at. Accordingly, I have avoided variable-width fonts for programming altogether. But the font in that book is by no means the only variable-width font. Could anyone here recommend a variable-width font that you have had good experience coding with?

Wilduck 15y ago
My concern for using a variable-width font is knowing how deeply indented I am at any point. With a fixed-width font, I can simply look up and see how many characters deeper I am compared to the previous line. I don't know how that would work with a variable-width font. I'd probably have to move my cursor back and forth, which would be a pain.
- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  I don’t understand what you mean—it doesn’t really matter how many characters or columns you’re indented, and can’t you discern depth visually in the same way regardless of typeface?
  - Wilduck 15y ago
    It does if you're using Python...
    - evincarofautumn 15y ago
      No, it doesn’t. Your indentation level matters, but provided your indentation is consistent, it doesn’t matter whether you use tabs or spaces, and the notion of “column” isn’t relevant to proportional-width fonts. If you’re worried about invalid indentation hiding from you, don’t use spaces for indentation with a proportional font—it doesn’t make sense anyway.
      - pigs 15y ago
        PEP8 recommends spaces: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/
      - Wilduck 15y ago
        That's understandable. I agree that tabs would work much better than spaces with a proportional font. However, in the case of Python PEP 8 states that you should use 4 spaces. Not doing so will make it very hard to collaborate with other devs. It's not that I think that proportional fonts couldn't work (even with python) It's just that I have concern about visually assessing indentation. Maybe it's time I try one and find out.
      - vilya 15y ago
        It matters more when you've got a statement broken over multiple lines. If you've got a function which takes a lot of arguments for example, lining them all up vertically can make the code a lot easier to read. This can be difficult or impossible to do with a proportional width font (and would almost certainly look very strange to anyone else looking at the code in a fixed-width font).
  - Avshalom 15y ago
    Well I'm not sure that it's actually a problem in practice but with a W taking up two ' ' spaces I can imagine a scenario where you over correct and end up in the wrong level.
  - muxxa 15y ago
    I've been using DejaVu Sans (proportional) for programming (including Python) for the last few months, and found it very easy to get used to. There are just a few glyphs that could be adjusted to line up better (closing braces in JS/PHP are a few px off), or in the case of quotation marks, two single quotes render the same as one double quote. I've started editing DejaVu (it's OSS) to correct these small number of issues, I don't think they are insurmountable.
- ori_b 15y ago
  Spaces or tabs have the same width within a font. Indentation at would work the same. You could even use tabs to line stuff up. Plan 9 uses a variable width font for their editor by default, and I never really noticed any significant differences for writing code in it.
evincarofautumn 15y ago
I think part of the problem is that C++ was not designed with proportional-width typefaces in mind, but I’ve had good experiences with broadly spaced sans-serifs, even the basics such as Arial Unicode and Lucida Sans Unicode. http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/5473/19828#19828 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/5473/19828#19... suggests Ubuntu Sans, which I think looks excellent. I think serif typefaces look nicer for more mathy languages such as Haskell.
groovy2shoes 15y ago
It was (is?) pretty fashionable in European programming books for some time. For example, all of Niklaus Wirth's books use variable-width fonts. I also find it unpleasant or even irritating at times. It's useless to compare programming languages to natural languages. Programming languages are formal languages and require some amount of precision for proper tokenization and parsing. If you misspell a word in English, or forget to capitalize something, or miss a space, people can still read it; if you do the same thing in a programming language, you often get an error. Typographic errors in code stand out better in a fixed-width font than they do in a variable-width one.
- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  “Typographic errors in code stand out better in a fixed-width font than they do in a variable-width one.” That’s a bold assertion. I would be very interested to see a study that demonstrates this.
  - groovy2shoes 15y ago
    I'd like to see a study, too. Unfortunately, I don't know of any. I do, however, vaguely recall an ergonomic study finding that it's easier (or at least faster) for humans to read text in variable-width fonts. I'll try to find a reference when I get off work. That being said, code isn't the same as text. My own experience has been that a missing or wrong character is easier to notice with a fixed-width font (especially narrow characters), and that extraneous or missing spaces are less obvious. Where those things don't matter too much for human readers, they do matter for computer readers. It's obvious to a human that BubleSort is probably supposed to be BubbleSort, but in a more formal setting there is a distinction.
cormullion 15y ago
I remember reading one of Douglas Hofstadter's books - Metamagical Themas - and liking the bold Helvetica font he used for all the Lisp code. But I doubt he coded with it...
- tjr 15y ago
  I've not read Metamagical Themas, but your words remind me that one of my favorite programming books, The Little Schemer, does in fact use a variable-width font for the code.
- tikhonj 15y ago
  I think Lisp is much more amenable to proportional fonts because it relies more on parentheses than indentation for structure.
  - muxxa 15y ago
    Each space in a proportional font is a set width, so the indentation structure is just as clear as with a fixed width font. Am I missing something? I can only imagine a problem if there is a mix of tabs and spaces..
    - haldean 15y ago
      It's not about getting adjacent lines with equal depth to line up. Its when you are indenting, and try to put yourself four spaces in. In a fixed-width font, you can just line yourself up with the fourth character of the previous line. In a variable width font, it's harder to tell how many spaces in you've gone.
      - muxxa 15y ago
        Ah, ok. This problem doesn't manifest in emacs, as the tab key indents you correctly by 4 spaces in most modes. I can't imagine it's much of a problem to line yourself up with the first character of the previous line and press the spacebar 4 times though.
      - 15y ago
skew 15y ago
It's not programming, but lhs2TeX is a positive example of typesetting code with proportional fonts. http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/ http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/ It goes to heroic lengths (writing polytable.sty) to preserve alignment in the input program, not just indentation.

by tjr 15y ago

Wilduck 15y ago

My concern for using a variable-width font is knowing how deeply indented I am at any point. With a fixed-width font, I can simply look up and see how many characters deeper I am compared to the previous line. I don't know how that would work with a variable-width font. I'd probably have to move my cursor back and forth, which would be a pain.

evincarofautumn 15y ago
I don’t understand what you mean—it doesn’t really matter how many characters or columns you’re indented, and can’t you discern depth visually in the same way regardless of typeface?
- Wilduck 15y ago
  It does if you're using Python...
  - evincarofautumn 15y ago
    No, it doesn’t. Your indentation level matters, but provided your indentation is consistent, it doesn’t matter whether you use tabs or spaces, and the notion of “column” isn’t relevant to proportional-width fonts. If you’re worried about invalid indentation hiding from you, don’t use spaces for indentation with a proportional font—it doesn’t make sense anyway.
    - pigs 15y ago
      PEP8 recommends spaces: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/
    - Wilduck 15y ago
      That's understandable. I agree that tabs would work much better than spaces with a proportional font. However, in the case of Python PEP 8 states that you should use 4 spaces. Not doing so will make it very hard to collaborate with other devs. It's not that I think that proportional fonts couldn't work (even with python) It's just that I have concern about visually assessing indentation. Maybe it's time I try one and find out.
    - vilya 15y ago
      It matters more when you've got a statement broken over multiple lines. If you've got a function which takes a lot of arguments for example, lining them all up vertically can make the code a lot easier to read. This can be difficult or impossible to do with a proportional width font (and would almost certainly look very strange to anyone else looking at the code in a fixed-width font).
- Avshalom 15y ago
  Well I'm not sure that it's actually a problem in practice but with a W taking up two ' ' spaces I can imagine a scenario where you over correct and end up in the wrong level.
- muxxa 15y ago
  I've been using DejaVu Sans (proportional) for programming (including Python) for the last few months, and found it very easy to get used to. There are just a few glyphs that could be adjusted to line up better (closing braces in JS/PHP are a few px off), or in the case of quotation marks, two single quotes render the same as one double quote. I've started editing DejaVu (it's OSS) to correct these small number of issues, I don't think they are insurmountable.
ori_b 15y ago
Spaces or tabs have the same width within a font. Indentation at would work the same. You could even use tabs to line stuff up. Plan 9 uses a variable width font for their editor by default, and I never really noticed any significant differences for writing code in it.

evincarofautumn 15y ago

I think part of the problem is that C++ was not designed with proportional-width typefaces in mind, but I’ve had good experiences with broadly spaced sans-serifs, even the basics such as Arial Unicode and Lucida Sans Unicode. http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/5473/19828#19828 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/5473/19828#19... suggests Ubuntu Sans, which I think looks excellent. I think serif typefaces look nicer for more mathy languages such as Haskell.

groovy2shoes 15y ago

It was (is?) pretty fashionable in European programming books for some time. For example, all of Niklaus Wirth's books use variable-width fonts. I also find it unpleasant or even irritating at times. It's useless to compare programming languages to natural languages. Programming languages are formal languages and require some amount of precision for proper tokenization and parsing. If you misspell a word in English, or forget to capitalize something, or miss a space, people can still read it; if you do the same thing in a programming language, you often get an error. Typographic errors in code stand out better in a fixed-width font than they do in a variable-width one.

evincarofautumn 15y ago
“Typographic errors in code stand out better in a fixed-width font than they do in a variable-width one.” That’s a bold assertion. I would be very interested to see a study that demonstrates this.
- groovy2shoes 15y ago
  I'd like to see a study, too. Unfortunately, I don't know of any. I do, however, vaguely recall an ergonomic study finding that it's easier (or at least faster) for humans to read text in variable-width fonts. I'll try to find a reference when I get off work. That being said, code isn't the same as text. My own experience has been that a missing or wrong character is easier to notice with a fixed-width font (especially narrow characters), and that extraneous or missing spaces are less obvious. Where those things don't matter too much for human readers, they do matter for computer readers. It's obvious to a human that BubleSort is probably supposed to be BubbleSort, but in a more formal setting there is a distinction.

cormullion 15y ago

I remember reading one of Douglas Hofstadter's books - Metamagical Themas - and liking the bold Helvetica font he used for all the Lisp code. But I doubt he coded with it...

tjr 15y ago
I've not read Metamagical Themas, but your words remind me that one of my favorite programming books, The Little Schemer, does in fact use a variable-width font for the code.
tikhonj 15y ago
I think Lisp is much more amenable to proportional fonts because it relies more on parentheses than indentation for structure.
- muxxa 15y ago
  Each space in a proportional font is a set width, so the indentation structure is just as clear as with a fixed width font. Am I missing something? I can only imagine a problem if there is a mix of tabs and spaces..
  - haldean 15y ago
    It's not about getting adjacent lines with equal depth to line up. Its when you are indenting, and try to put yourself four spaces in. In a fixed-width font, you can just line yourself up with the fourth character of the previous line. In a variable width font, it's harder to tell how many spaces in you've gone.
    - muxxa 15y ago
      Ah, ok. This problem doesn't manifest in emacs, as the tab key indents you correctly by 4 spaces in most modes. I can't imagine it's much of a problem to line yourself up with the first character of the previous line and press the spacebar 4 times though.
    - 15y ago

skew 15y ago

It's not programming, but lhs2TeX is a positive example of typesetting code with proportional fonts. http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/ http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/ It goes to heroic lengths (writing polytable.sty) to preserve alignment in the input program, not just indentation.