7 ms·

Between the donation lock-out from every major bank, the heavily biased media coverage, and the clearly false charges against Assange, this has become too painf

by maqr 15y ago

Between the donation lock-out from every major bank, the heavily biased media coverage, and the clearly false charges against Assange, this has become too painful to watch. All of this for a guy trying to create a press outlet that tells the real truth, using anonymous and protected (but verified) sources, for free, to the whole world.

scott_s 15y ago
I'm curious how you were able to come to the conclusion that the charges are "clearly false." The charges sound serious to me, and while I have not concluded on their truth, I cannot dismiss them. They sound like they have enough merit for a trial. For example, "Given that one of the women said she awoke to find Mr. Assange having unprotected sex with her, she could not possibly have given her consent, Ms. Montgomery argued." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/12/world/europe/12assange.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/12/world/europe/12assange.htm...)
- oconnore 15y ago
  Since when has the burden of proof been with the accused? Do either of these women have evidence other than their own testimony?
  - teaspoon 15y ago
    The burden of proof is on the accusers, but "not proven" is a long way off from "clearly false".
  - cperciva 15y ago
    Men accused of sexual offences have been presumed guilty until proven innocent for the past two decades. Didn't you get the memo?
    - william42 15y ago
      And that's why so many of them have gone to jail recently...oh wait.
      - tsotha 15y ago
        Not sure what you're trying to say there. Men go to jail on all the time purely on the strength of the victim's testimony. Seems like every week I'm reading a story in the newspaper about a guy who got released from jail after being cleared by a DNA test.
- nandemo 15y ago
  I agree that the accusations aren't clearly false, but note that he hasn't been formally charged with a crime. He will be extradited to Sweden to be questioned (!). AFAIK nobody said he's not going to court yet.
  - toyg 15y ago
    That's another scandal. Swedish prosecutors never issue international arrest warrants to question random Joe Sixpacks, certainly not for very dubious accusations like these. It's a shame that such a civilized country is being dragged through the mud by politically-motivated scumbags.
    - nobody3141592 15y ago
      And the same British government refused to extradite General Pinochet to Spain for war crimes because there wasn't enough evidence! The courts are going to be very busy if months after every club 18-30 holiday you can regret a drunken 'romance' and have the other party extradited.
      - tedunangst 15y ago
        Uh, no, that's not why he was released.
    - jeltz 15y ago
      Agreed, I do not believe the rape accusations were politically motivated but the international warrant obviously was. It is probably the first time ever sexual misconduct with weak evidence has resulted in an international arrest warrant.
  - nandemo 15y ago
    s/he's not going/he's going/
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  The evidence suggests it is highly unlikely they are true. Most rape victims don't tweet about how it's "amazing" to hang out with "cool" and "smart" people after being raped, or throw a party for their rapist. http://rixstep.com/1/20101001,01.shtml http://rixstep.com/1/20101001,01.shtml Nor do they usually invite their rapist to stay at their house 4 days after the rape. http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/12/crayfish_parties_and_broken_co.html http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/12/crayfish_parties_and_br... It's also a rather implausible coincidence that after these events, the rape charge only surfaced after a) Assange failed to call either Anna Ardin or Miss W. back and b) Ardin and W each discovered he was sleeping with the other one. I think the story itself justifies a very low probability of being true - in my estimation, probably considerably less than 1%.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Most rape victims don't tweet about how it's "amazing" to hang out with "cool" and "smart" people after being raped, or throw a party for their rapist. Nor do they usually invite their rapist to stay at their house 4 days after the rape. Stockholm syndrome?
    - zobzu 15y ago
      i can't figure out if that's sarcasm or a dumb sheeped down comment :p
      - iamdave 15y ago
        Why? I too think the charges are trumped up, but Stockholm is a possibility until one or both of these women come out with the truth of what actually happened.
        araneae 15y ago
        It's not a possibility, because he did not hold them captive. Stockholm Syndrome only refers to situations where people who are held against their will have positive feelings towards their captors.
- mc32 15y ago
  Isn't it the case when you sympathise with someone one gives them the benefit of doubt --but when one dislikes someone one envisions the worst? 1. Imagine a good friend accused of something (ex. aggr. assault). 2. Imagine a good friend accuses someone of the same thing. If instead of Assange, the accused were a live Qaddafi, or, say the Dalai Lama, would we not see things a bit differently, in each case, due to bias? We just don't know. It's all conjecture at this point with he said, she said.
epenn 15y ago
clearly false charges I was not there to witness what did or did not happen with Assange and the girls in question. As a result I cannot comment on his guilt or innocence. Through what evidence have you concluded that they are clearly false charges?
- mahmud 15y ago
  They're not "girls", they're women, as both females are well past their teenage years.
tompagenet2 15y ago
I'm surprised you see the issue in such black and white terms. Certainly some of Mr Assange's comments might lead some to suspect he sees conspiracy where there is none [1] and that his judgement is not impeccable. Wikileaks and Assange have also turned on their partners, notably the Guardian, when circumstances have suited them [2] and their concerns for the safety of those mentioned in their releases have not always appeared sincere [3]. I'm not saying that these pieces of evidence point towards Mr Assange being guilty, evil or anything else, but they do suggest he's human and fallible, and perhaps not 100% pure in his intentions. I don't mean this as a criticism of him, but it does make me question any entirely polarised assertion about the man. I've not been able to spot anything untoward in the way the UK courts have treated Assange, and I can't help but feel that if the charges are 'clearly false' they can be demonstrated as such in Sweden - a country that Mr Assange himself has in the past admired [4], but now seeks to label as the 'Saudi Arabia of feminism' [5]. Clearly going through such a procedure must be harrowing for all involved, and I'm not dismissing the stress lightly, but accusations of criminality being investigated is a key principle of society and in the Swedish legal system formal charges occur after extradition and questioning. This seems reasonable. If Wikileaks' cause was noble it does not mean that Assange is automatically innocent, or that any investigation of him is a conspiracy. [1]: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/01/julian-assange-jewish-conspiracy-comments http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/01/julian-assange-j... [2]: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/09/wikileaks-unredacted-cable-release-is-guardians-fault.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/09/wikileaks-un... [3]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14765837 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14765837 [4]: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/02/assange-hero-zero-swedes-pitiable http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/02/assange-... [5]: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/02/why-is-julian-assange-calling-sweden-the-saudi-arabia-of-feminism/17721/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/02/why-is-julia...
- ScottBurson 15y ago
  If Wikileaks' cause was noble it does not mean that Assange is automatically innocent, or that any investigation of him is a conspiracy. True... but can you really doubt that US officials (and maybe others) are quietly twisting Sweden's arm to make as much of the investigation as they can? It would be very much out of character for them to pass up the opportunity.
FrankenTan 15y ago
Wikileaks sadly lost a lot of respect from me and many people I know when some of their comments and many of their followers weren't about Assange's innocence, but instead in defense of rape, both directly and through criticism of conditional consent. Even if only some zealous defenders had done so rather than wikileaks (most likely) accidentally doing so, it would still taste quite bitter. While I wholeheartedly agree it's not been handled well at all by the Swedish prosecutors and government, and that there are irregularities and that Wikileaks and Assange should* criticize and question this, seeing people defend rape to defend them is bizarre. Although I am well aware this happens whenever rape is discussed. Conditional consent IS a legal concept in Sweden, and one I personally agree with. This saddens me, as I'm a rather big fan of Wikileaks and since I am also a fan of Assange I hope he's innocent. *Conditional Consent: While you might argue that there may be a need for different words for varying degrees and types of sexual crimes. Rape, at least for now, is defined solely by the presence of consent, as far as I understand. If my consent hinges on a condition, and this was explained, my consent is nullified if the person willfully lies about this condition to be able to have sexual contact with me. Ex: A woman lies about being on birth-control or a man lies about condom or being sterile.

by maqr 15y ago

scott_s 15y ago

I'm curious how you were able to come to the conclusion that the charges are "clearly false." The charges sound serious to me, and while I have not concluded on their truth, I cannot dismiss them. They sound like they have enough merit for a trial. For example, "Given that one of the women said she awoke to find Mr. Assange having unprotected sex with her, she could not possibly have given her consent, Ms. Montgomery argued." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/12/world/europe/12assange.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/12/world/europe/12assange.htm...)

oconnore 15y ago
Since when has the burden of proof been with the accused? Do either of these women have evidence other than their own testimony?
- teaspoon 15y ago
  The burden of proof is on the accusers, but "not proven" is a long way off from "clearly false".
- cperciva 15y ago
  Men accused of sexual offences have been presumed guilty until proven innocent for the past two decades. Didn't you get the memo?
  - william42 15y ago
    And that's why so many of them have gone to jail recently...oh wait.
    - tsotha 15y ago
      Not sure what you're trying to say there. Men go to jail on all the time purely on the strength of the victim's testimony. Seems like every week I'm reading a story in the newspaper about a guy who got released from jail after being cleared by a DNA test.
nandemo 15y ago
I agree that the accusations aren't clearly false, but note that he hasn't been formally charged with a crime. He will be extradited to Sweden to be questioned (!). AFAIK nobody said he's not going to court yet.
- toyg 15y ago
  That's another scandal. Swedish prosecutors never issue international arrest warrants to question random Joe Sixpacks, certainly not for very dubious accusations like these. It's a shame that such a civilized country is being dragged through the mud by politically-motivated scumbags.
  - nobody3141592 15y ago
    And the same British government refused to extradite General Pinochet to Spain for war crimes because there wasn't enough evidence! The courts are going to be very busy if months after every club 18-30 holiday you can regret a drunken 'romance' and have the other party extradited.
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      Uh, no, that's not why he was released.
  - jeltz 15y ago
    Agreed, I do not believe the rape accusations were politically motivated but the international warrant obviously was. It is probably the first time ever sexual misconduct with weak evidence has resulted in an international arrest warrant.
- nandemo 15y ago
  s/he's not going/he's going/
yummyfajitas 15y ago
The evidence suggests it is highly unlikely they are true. Most rape victims don't tweet about how it's "amazing" to hang out with "cool" and "smart" people after being raped, or throw a party for their rapist. http://rixstep.com/1/20101001,01.shtml http://rixstep.com/1/20101001,01.shtml Nor do they usually invite their rapist to stay at their house 4 days after the rape. http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/12/crayfish_parties_and_broken_co.html http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/12/crayfish_parties_and_br... It's also a rather implausible coincidence that after these events, the rape charge only surfaced after a) Assange failed to call either Anna Ardin or Miss W. back and b) Ardin and W each discovered he was sleeping with the other one. I think the story itself justifies a very low probability of being true - in my estimation, probably considerably less than 1%.
- jrockway 15y ago
  Most rape victims don't tweet about how it's "amazing" to hang out with "cool" and "smart" people after being raped, or throw a party for their rapist. Nor do they usually invite their rapist to stay at their house 4 days after the rape. Stockholm syndrome?
  - zobzu 15y ago
    i can't figure out if that's sarcasm or a dumb sheeped down comment :p
    - iamdave 15y ago
      Why? I too think the charges are trumped up, but Stockholm is a possibility until one or both of these women come out with the truth of what actually happened.
      - araneae 15y ago
        It's not a possibility, because he did not hold them captive. Stockholm Syndrome only refers to situations where people who are held against their will have positive feelings towards their captors.
mc32 15y ago
Isn't it the case when you sympathise with someone one gives them the benefit of doubt --but when one dislikes someone one envisions the worst? 1. Imagine a good friend accused of something (ex. aggr. assault). 2. Imagine a good friend accuses someone of the same thing. If instead of Assange, the accused were a live Qaddafi, or, say the Dalai Lama, would we not see things a bit differently, in each case, due to bias? We just don't know. It's all conjecture at this point with he said, she said.

epenn 15y ago

clearly false charges I was not there to witness what did or did not happen with Assange and the girls in question. As a result I cannot comment on his guilt or innocence. Through what evidence have you concluded that they are clearly false charges?

mahmud 15y ago
They're not "girls", they're women, as both females are well past their teenage years.

tompagenet2 15y ago

I'm surprised you see the issue in such black and white terms. Certainly some of Mr Assange's comments might lead some to suspect he sees conspiracy where there is none [1] and that his judgement is not impeccable. Wikileaks and Assange have also turned on their partners, notably the Guardian, when circumstances have suited them [2] and their concerns for the safety of those mentioned in their releases have not always appeared sincere [3]. I'm not saying that these pieces of evidence point towards Mr Assange being guilty, evil or anything else, but they do suggest he's human and fallible, and perhaps not 100% pure in his intentions. I don't mean this as a criticism of him, but it does make me question any entirely polarised assertion about the man. I've not been able to spot anything untoward in the way the UK courts have treated Assange, and I can't help but feel that if the charges are 'clearly false' they can be demonstrated as such in Sweden - a country that Mr Assange himself has in the past admired [4], but now seeks to label as the 'Saudi Arabia of feminism' [5]. Clearly going through such a procedure must be harrowing for all involved, and I'm not dismissing the stress lightly, but accusations of criminality being investigated is a key principle of society and in the Swedish legal system formal charges occur after extradition and questioning. This seems reasonable. If Wikileaks' cause was noble it does not mean that Assange is automatically innocent, or that any investigation of him is a conspiracy. [1]: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/01/julian-assange-jewish-conspiracy-comments http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/01/julian-assange-j... [2]: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/09/wikileaks-unredacted-cable-release-is-guardians-fault.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/09/wikileaks-un... [3]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14765837 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14765837 [4]: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/02/assange-hero-zero-swedes-pitiable http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/02/assange-... [5]: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/02/why-is-julian-assange-calling-sweden-the-saudi-arabia-of-feminism/17721/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/02/why-is-julia...

ScottBurson 15y ago
If Wikileaks' cause was noble it does not mean that Assange is automatically innocent, or that any investigation of him is a conspiracy. True... but can you really doubt that US officials (and maybe others) are quietly twisting Sweden's arm to make as much of the investigation as they can? It would be very much out of character for them to pass up the opportunity.

FrankenTan 15y ago

Wikileaks sadly lost a lot of respect from me and many people I know when some of their comments and many of their followers weren't about Assange's innocence, but instead in defense of rape, both directly and through criticism of conditional consent. Even if only some zealous defenders had done so rather than wikileaks (most likely) accidentally doing so, it would still taste quite bitter. While I wholeheartedly agree it's not been handled well at all by the Swedish prosecutors and government, and that there are irregularities and that Wikileaks and Assange should* criticize and question this, seeing people defend rape to defend them is bizarre. Although I am well aware this happens whenever rape is discussed. Conditional consent IS a legal concept in Sweden, and one I personally agree with. This saddens me, as I'm a rather big fan of Wikileaks and since I am also a fan of Assange I hope he's innocent. *Conditional Consent: While you might argue that there may be a need for different words for varying degrees and types of sexual crimes. Rape, at least for now, is defined solely by the presence of consent, as far as I understand. If my consent hinges on a condition, and this was explained, my consent is nullified if the person willfully lies about this condition to be able to have sexual contact with me. Ex: A woman lies about being on birth-control or a man lies about condom or being sterile.