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The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security). Moreover, the lo

The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security). Moreover, the logical extreme of this argument is to just not have a government at all. I don't need bridges because I don't drive. I don't need the fire department because I am careful. Etc. It doesn't make sense, and the truth is that some things either best administered centrally, at scale, and protected from market forces, and/or the inefficiencies of central planning are still better for society as a whole (even if not for you) than the alternative outcomes that would arise if you rely on various market-like systems.

seibelj 4y ago
The brightest minds don’t go into government bureaucracies - they don’t get respect, don’t get paid, can’t get shit done, and a myriad of reasons why they go private instead. The best-staffed departments are those that have a symbiotic relationship with the private sector, like the SEC, where doing a government stint raises your value in the private sector significantly. Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  > Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions. Citation needed on this FUD. Any "slide" is more likely due to punitive funding cuts in agencies like the IRS or due to corrupt leadership (including some presidential appointees) at agencies like the FCC. If anything, the Biden administration has been refreshingly high-functioning in its basic capacity as the executive branch of the federal government, regardless of how you feel about his public statements or policy agenda.
- WJW 4y ago
  I'm not saying you're not correct wherever you are, but it's important to recognize that there is a significant cultural aspect in this. In the US, you would be entirely correct: talented people don't go into the government and thus the public sector is filled with subpar employees. In many EU countries, the government has more prestige, thus it attracts more talent and so it works better and gets more prestige. It's a feedback loop in both directions. I can point to a great many effective government services in my own country in western Europe for example.
  - jokethrowaway 4y ago
    Government services can work - but at what cost? We routinely had multimillions public projects to build crappy website for our universities. It was something the students could have done better for less than 100k. After you factor in all the corruption and inefficiency caused by not having competition, you can end up paying a high multiple of what is reasonable.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
> I don't need bridges because I don't drive Why should you pay for it? Let those who need it or stand to make money out of it to pay. There are alternative systems, we never had the freedom to try them outside of emperors / feudal kings / governments coercion: http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf
- nerdponx 4y ago
  This book has about the same information content as The Conquest of Bread: a lot of interesting ideas and idealistic speculation, and not a lot in the way of practical instructions for organizing a robust large-scale society. Edit: It's worth remembering that the earliest highways in the USA were privately-owned toll roads. And that the first mass transit systems were privately owned railroads. There is a lot to be said for free markets and the price system! But there is also a reason that these pieces of infrastructure ended up under the government umbrella.
samatman 4y ago
The logical extreme of your argument is communism. I'm not even slightly accusing you of advocating communism, but rather, pointing out that the logical extreme is irrelevant.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  Not at all. My argument is that some things are better when centrally administered to some degree, and that "I don't use it therefore I shouldn't have to pay for it" is itself an extreme and somewhat antisocial position to hold in general.
  - samatman 4y ago
    Your mistake is imputing reasonableness to yourself and extremity to your interlocutor.

seibelj 4y ago

The brightest minds don’t go into government bureaucracies - they don’t get respect, don’t get paid, can’t get shit done, and a myriad of reasons why they go private instead. The best-staffed departments are those that have a symbiotic relationship with the private sector, like the SEC, where doing a government stint raises your value in the private sector significantly. Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions.

nerdponx 4y ago
> Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions. Citation needed on this FUD. Any "slide" is more likely due to punitive funding cuts in agencies like the IRS or due to corrupt leadership (including some presidential appointees) at agencies like the FCC. If anything, the Biden administration has been refreshingly high-functioning in its basic capacity as the executive branch of the federal government, regardless of how you feel about his public statements or policy agenda.
WJW 4y ago
I'm not saying you're not correct wherever you are, but it's important to recognize that there is a significant cultural aspect in this. In the US, you would be entirely correct: talented people don't go into the government and thus the public sector is filled with subpar employees. In many EU countries, the government has more prestige, thus it attracts more talent and so it works better and gets more prestige. It's a feedback loop in both directions. I can point to a great many effective government services in my own country in western Europe for example.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  Government services can work - but at what cost? We routinely had multimillions public projects to build crappy website for our universities. It was something the students could have done better for less than 100k. After you factor in all the corruption and inefficiency caused by not having competition, you can end up paying a high multiple of what is reasonable.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

> I don't need bridges because I don't drive Why should you pay for it? Let those who need it or stand to make money out of it to pay. There are alternative systems, we never had the freedom to try them outside of emperors / feudal kings / governments coercion: http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

nerdponx 4y ago
This book has about the same information content as The Conquest of Bread: a lot of interesting ideas and idealistic speculation, and not a lot in the way of practical instructions for organizing a robust large-scale society. Edit: It's worth remembering that the earliest highways in the USA were privately-owned toll roads. And that the first mass transit systems were privately owned railroads. There is a lot to be said for free markets and the price system! But there is also a reason that these pieces of infrastructure ended up under the government umbrella.

samatman 4y ago

The logical extreme of your argument is communism. I'm not even slightly accusing you of advocating communism, but rather, pointing out that the logical extreme is irrelevant.

nerdponx 4y ago
Not at all. My argument is that some things are better when centrally administered to some degree, and that "I don't use it therefore I shouldn't have to pay for it" is itself an extreme and somewhat antisocial position to hold in general.
- samatman 4y ago
  Your mistake is imputing reasonableness to yourself and extremity to your interlocutor.