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A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I

A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I’d rather keep more of my take-home pay and do without certain services, or better yet choose the provider (and quality / expense) of such services if I want them. Somehow the bureaucracy in the US is still massive, so I can only imagine what far higher tax rates in Europe enable.

ido 4y ago
Tax rates at the higher taxed states in the US (like California) are actually not lower than in western europe while still not providing you with all the services western european governments do.
- I_AM_A_SMURF 4y ago
  For high earners it's still higher in EU, about 50% vs 40% but yeah it's not that significant.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Be aware that those 50% in the EU usually include social security, unemployment, health care and taxes, not just taxes on your salary. Also, it's less than 50% in praxis, 50% are just easier to calculate in your head.
    - pedrosorio 4y ago
      Those 40% in California also include: - Medicare (65+ healthcare), social security (retirement) - California taxes: disability, unemployment, and for low income people, Medi-Cal covers healthcare as well
- seibelj 4y ago
  I live in Massachusetts, and somehow we actually have fairly low taxation (5.25% flat tax) despite our reputation and being deep blue politically. I average about 30% total taxation in a high tax bracket. If I was trying to avoid taxes on real wealth I would move to Florida for 6 months and do the other 6 in Boston (as have many friends of mine). Why people keep paying California / NYC tax rates in software dev jobs makes no sense anymore.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    I think MA is probably the state with the best "bang for buck" in terms of what the government provides per dollar of taxes paid. NY is comparatively insulting to reside in, because the government is so wasteful/corrupt there and is therefore capable of providing so much less (not to mention its legendary ability to stall legislation indefinitely).
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    Meanwhile WA has no state income tax at all, so it's even better for high earners. Advantages for the bay area are its weather and much larger tech ecosystem. Main advantage for NYC is being a 'real' big city with all that entails (night life, better transit/walkability, other urban amenities).
nerdponx 4y ago
The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security). Moreover, the logical extreme of this argument is to just not have a government at all. I don't need bridges because I don't drive. I don't need the fire department because I am careful. Etc. It doesn't make sense, and the truth is that some things either best administered centrally, at scale, and protected from market forces, and/or the inefficiencies of central planning are still better for society as a whole (even if not for you) than the alternative outcomes that would arise if you rely on various market-like systems.
- seibelj 4y ago
  The brightest minds don’t go into government bureaucracies - they don’t get respect, don’t get paid, can’t get shit done, and a myriad of reasons why they go private instead. The best-staffed departments are those that have a symbiotic relationship with the private sector, like the SEC, where doing a government stint raises your value in the private sector significantly. Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    > Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions. Citation needed on this FUD. Any "slide" is more likely due to punitive funding cuts in agencies like the IRS or due to corrupt leadership (including some presidential appointees) at agencies like the FCC. If anything, the Biden administration has been refreshingly high-functioning in its basic capacity as the executive branch of the federal government, regardless of how you feel about his public statements or policy agenda.
  - 4y ago
thr0wawayf00 4y ago
> you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. Not really in my experience. You get to choose between providers in your insurance network, but I've lost count of the number of times my preferred provider wasn't in my network. On top of that, the insurance company has to sign off on many diagnostic tests even when my doctor wants to do one. I'm experiencing this right now with chronic pain associated with an old injury. My doctor wants to do an arthrogram, but my insurance won't approve it without doing a full course of physical therapy first and doing any kind of motion with this injury is excruciatingly painful. I have to literally suffer through 12 weeks of PT in order to get the imaging I need and I have what many would consider to be great insurance. I don't really have any (good) choices here. I can pay for the imaging out of pocket or continue to suffer. This is a uniquely American problem.
- PakistaniDenzel 4y ago
  If you were in the UK you would get a PT appointment 6 months in the future and told to rest and take painkillers (which you buy yourself). Or you pay out of pocket for a private specialist to actually get help.
  - robocat 4y ago
    The situation in New Zealand is similar. There is an infinite demand for health services, so our public health system is busy, so you go on a waiting list. The UK and NZ spend about 10% of GDP each (~$4kUSD/capita). The well-off pay for health insurance which will get you faster service, and the very well off just pay privately. The first site I looked at for a private arthrogram was ~USD1050 (Single joint or region Arthrogram including Gadolinium) https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mri+private+price+list+site%3Anz https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mri+private+price+list+sit... For more expensive procedures, some NZers travel to Asia to get medical procedures. The prices in Asia including flights and accomodation can be very affordable for the middle class, depending on what needs doing and how much risk you are willing to take.
- user_7832 4y ago
  Might it not be possible to have your doctor write some "PT not possible"/"PT may result in additional injury" note? Failing which, is it possible to speak with someone higher up at your insurance company? I do not know your background, but if you have sufficient resources (well, mainly money) it might be easier to contact an injury/similar lawyer and have them represent you to talk, and perhaps go to the legal dept of the insurance company. I am sorry for what you're having to go through, healthcare is unfortunately far from perfect (even outside the US).
djvdq 4y ago
Let's say that I want to have better train infrastructure. How much will it cost me to build that, according to your thinking?
- seibelj 4y ago
  I would rather a private company build it, or in a public / private partnership, so we at least have some semblance of breaking-even if not a small profit. Our current train systems are so woefully wasteful, inefficient, prone to breaking down, and so on that simply giving the same corruption more money would be extremely unwise.
  - BossingAround 4y ago
    I see no real reason why public transport must be necessarily profitable. It's a common good that tax payers enjoy. You'll have profitable legs, but you'll also have legs that are used by a few folks from a village who need to get to the city once a week, and those will never be profitable. A private company would probably not build there.
    - ceeplusplus 4y ago
      Because without the need to be profitable, you get gross incompetence, corruption, and waste. See: California HSR, BART expansion, NYC subway expansion. The power of the market forces private businesses to offer quality service. A privately run subway would never allow drug addicts and thieves run rampant on the train like they're allowed to in NYC and the Bay. Pro tip: if I feel scared for my life or property at any point during a transit, you've already lost against a car.
      - discordance 4y ago
        Per mile, cars are by far the most life threatening form of transportation.
        4y ago
sealeck 4y ago
Even if (which it almost certainly isn't) what you claim is true, the point of paying taxes is not just about what you immediately, materially gain but (a) to support people on lower incomes and (b) to fund things like R&D projects (e.g. the www is a result of state-funded CERN) and infrastructure which would be too expensive to build personally (e.g. roads, railway tracks to ship goods to ones house), etc
ornornor 4y ago
The corollary is that you live like a king in a country where people could be billionaires or they could be poor, desperate, with untreated mental health issues, nothing to lose, and a loaded gun. On the global scale, I wouldn’t say the US is a beacon of progress and happiness. It’s better than many bottom tier countries but far from top tier countries (which aren’t as liberal, for the most part)
- nivenkos 4y ago
  What top tier countries? The US is the wealthiest country in the world by miles. It's had the highest GDP every single year for over 100 years continuously. That amount of capital is phenomenal, and part of why Americans enjoy salaries 3-4x higher than even Western Europe in most professional work - Tech, Medicine, Law, truck driving, etc. And that money allows you to work your way up, and buy your own property, etc. which is almost impossible in much of Europe, Canada, etc.
  - BossingAround 4y ago
    > The US is the wealthiest country in the world by miles. True, but the point is that most of that wealth is highly concentrated. Hence why the US is not the beacon of happiness and progress.
    - samatman 4y ago
      Balderdash. The median net worth in the US is $125,000 for a household. It's €50,000 in the Netherlands.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    Yes on economical metrics. But in happiness, life expectancy, education, equality, prisoners count, literacy, and many other things that arguably matter more in life than $$$ then the US is quite lagging compared to other developed economies.
nivenkos 4y ago
Yeah, and for most working professionals you get sweet FA. Like here in Sweden we pay 40% income tax, 25% sales tax and still have to pay about $30 for each doctor visit. Dentistry is not included in the state health coverage. Neither are annual checkups of any kind, so diagnosis can be difficult and slow, etc. In Sweden, those taxes are just going to those who are lucky enough to have first-hand subsidised apartment contracts, or have loads of children and live off the barnbidrag. Especially asylum seekers (failed or accepted) that get both of those for free, and never have to work or integrate with society. The only major benefit over the US is the semi-decent trade unions which mean full-time work is quite stable and with good vacation allowance.
- BossingAround 4y ago
  I am not disputing what you're saying about your healthcare system, but if you get hit by a car, I would guess that nobody will be afraid to call an ambulance for fear of the cost. The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. You might take an uber to the hospital in Sweden too, out of convenience, but not out of fear for being stuck with a $1000 bill.
  - varispeed 4y ago
    > The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. It's a bit ironic as a couple of months ago I had to call for an ambulance here in the UK when I found someone extremely unwell and they told me I should call an Uber and take that person to A&E myself, because they don't have free ambulances. Then at A&E they had over 3h waiting time for majors. You pay fortune in taxes and you get crap service. Often you have to go privately to see a specialist and you can't deduct that money from your taxes.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      The anecdotes from supposedly-superior socialized medical systems in Europe always throw cold water on USA leftist dreams. The left here has been saying it’s a utopia for a fraction of the cost for decades. The reality is so much more complex.
stetrain 4y ago
How many choices do I have in the US where I can live, shop, eat, travel, etc. without owning, insuring, maintaining, and fueling a car?
Joeri 4y ago
A well run government subsidized system still has choice and competition. In belgium I can choose what school my kids go to, even though all of them are subsidized to the point of costing very little. I can also choose what hospital to go to, or what doctor to see, and that visit will always be subsidized by the public healthcare system, while doctors still are self-employed and can set their own rates (higher rates means I pay more myself). In both systems there is little administration, because the system works the same way for everyone and is straightforward.
- seibelj 4y ago
  Sadly in the USA, any hint of allowing “choice” with public schooling has you labeled a heretic by one side of our two-party system. While leftists despise monopolies in all business, they worship monopolies when it comes to schooling, no matter how expensive and how terrible the outcomes.
wasmitnetzen 4y ago
There are things money can't buy. It's hard to list things without getting too political, which I don't think this is the right forum for, but there are fundamental differences in European politics vs American politics, and no salary, as high as it might be, can change that.
- K0SM0S 4y ago
  To me, freedom certainly is one of those things money can't ultimately buy (I'm talking about 99% of the population, not billionaires), and I'm saddened to see it's been going downhill on both sides of the pond for the last 20 odd years. There are differences, but both are unequivocally evolving towards more authoritarian, controlling regimes. And that's a shame, because everything else (health, education, labor, social, even happiness) suffers from that foundational loss.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
Taxes in EU can be high or low depending on where you leave and whether you're employed or work through your own business. Tax rates can go from 5% (Maltese company + Portuguese NHR scheme) to 60% (high earning employees). High tax Europe doesn't make any sense if you ask me, you're not getting much for it. Infrastructure (roads, public departments, police) and public healthcare are terrible in most of EU for the average high earner. Nordic countries are way better in that regards but it's too cold for me to even consider those places. USA healthcare is comparable to the best private healthcare available in EU.

ido 4y ago

Tax rates at the higher taxed states in the US (like California) are actually not lower than in western europe while still not providing you with all the services western european governments do.

I_AM_A_SMURF 4y ago
For high earners it's still higher in EU, about 50% vs 40% but yeah it's not that significant.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Be aware that those 50% in the EU usually include social security, unemployment, health care and taxes, not just taxes on your salary. Also, it's less than 50% in praxis, 50% are just easier to calculate in your head.
  - pedrosorio 4y ago
    Those 40% in California also include: - Medicare (65+ healthcare), social security (retirement) - California taxes: disability, unemployment, and for low income people, Medi-Cal covers healthcare as well
seibelj 4y ago
I live in Massachusetts, and somehow we actually have fairly low taxation (5.25% flat tax) despite our reputation and being deep blue politically. I average about 30% total taxation in a high tax bracket. If I was trying to avoid taxes on real wealth I would move to Florida for 6 months and do the other 6 in Boston (as have many friends of mine). Why people keep paying California / NYC tax rates in software dev jobs makes no sense anymore.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  I think MA is probably the state with the best "bang for buck" in terms of what the government provides per dollar of taxes paid. NY is comparatively insulting to reside in, because the government is so wasteful/corrupt there and is therefore capable of providing so much less (not to mention its legendary ability to stall legislation indefinitely).
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Meanwhile WA has no state income tax at all, so it's even better for high earners. Advantages for the bay area are its weather and much larger tech ecosystem. Main advantage for NYC is being a 'real' big city with all that entails (night life, better transit/walkability, other urban amenities).

nerdponx 4y ago

The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security). Moreover, the logical extreme of this argument is to just not have a government at all. I don't need bridges because I don't drive. I don't need the fire department because I am careful. Etc. It doesn't make sense, and the truth is that some things either best administered centrally, at scale, and protected from market forces, and/or the inefficiencies of central planning are still better for society as a whole (even if not for you) than the alternative outcomes that would arise if you rely on various market-like systems.

seibelj 4y ago
The brightest minds don’t go into government bureaucracies - they don’t get respect, don’t get paid, can’t get shit done, and a myriad of reasons why they go private instead. The best-staffed departments are those that have a symbiotic relationship with the private sector, like the SEC, where doing a government stint raises your value in the private sector significantly. Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  > Because we have seen endless waste and corruption in our central planning, I no longer want them running or planning anything. If there was even a single government service that made even a semblance of efficiency and effectiveness then perhaps that one could remain. But overall it’s been an endless slide to shittiness in our public institutions. Citation needed on this FUD. Any "slide" is more likely due to punitive funding cuts in agencies like the IRS or due to corrupt leadership (including some presidential appointees) at agencies like the FCC. If anything, the Biden administration has been refreshingly high-functioning in its basic capacity as the executive branch of the federal government, regardless of how you feel about his public statements or policy agenda.
- 4y ago

thr0wawayf00 4y ago

> you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. Not really in my experience. You get to choose between providers in your insurance network, but I've lost count of the number of times my preferred provider wasn't in my network. On top of that, the insurance company has to sign off on many diagnostic tests even when my doctor wants to do one. I'm experiencing this right now with chronic pain associated with an old injury. My doctor wants to do an arthrogram, but my insurance won't approve it without doing a full course of physical therapy first and doing any kind of motion with this injury is excruciatingly painful. I have to literally suffer through 12 weeks of PT in order to get the imaging I need and I have what many would consider to be great insurance. I don't really have any (good) choices here. I can pay for the imaging out of pocket or continue to suffer. This is a uniquely American problem.

PakistaniDenzel 4y ago
If you were in the UK you would get a PT appointment 6 months in the future and told to rest and take painkillers (which you buy yourself). Or you pay out of pocket for a private specialist to actually get help.
- robocat 4y ago
  The situation in New Zealand is similar. There is an infinite demand for health services, so our public health system is busy, so you go on a waiting list. The UK and NZ spend about 10% of GDP each (~$4kUSD/capita). The well-off pay for health insurance which will get you faster service, and the very well off just pay privately. The first site I looked at for a private arthrogram was ~USD1050 (Single joint or region Arthrogram including Gadolinium) https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mri+private+price+list+site%3Anz https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mri+private+price+list+sit... For more expensive procedures, some NZers travel to Asia to get medical procedures. The prices in Asia including flights and accomodation can be very affordable for the middle class, depending on what needs doing and how much risk you are willing to take.
user_7832 4y ago
Might it not be possible to have your doctor write some "PT not possible"/"PT may result in additional injury" note? Failing which, is it possible to speak with someone higher up at your insurance company? I do not know your background, but if you have sufficient resources (well, mainly money) it might be easier to contact an injury/similar lawyer and have them represent you to talk, and perhaps go to the legal dept of the insurance company. I am sorry for what you're having to go through, healthcare is unfortunately far from perfect (even outside the US).

djvdq 4y ago

Let's say that I want to have better train infrastructure. How much will it cost me to build that, according to your thinking?

seibelj 4y ago
I would rather a private company build it, or in a public / private partnership, so we at least have some semblance of breaking-even if not a small profit. Our current train systems are so woefully wasteful, inefficient, prone to breaking down, and so on that simply giving the same corruption more money would be extremely unwise.
- BossingAround 4y ago
  I see no real reason why public transport must be necessarily profitable. It's a common good that tax payers enjoy. You'll have profitable legs, but you'll also have legs that are used by a few folks from a village who need to get to the city once a week, and those will never be profitable. A private company would probably not build there.
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    Because without the need to be profitable, you get gross incompetence, corruption, and waste. See: California HSR, BART expansion, NYC subway expansion. The power of the market forces private businesses to offer quality service. A privately run subway would never allow drug addicts and thieves run rampant on the train like they're allowed to in NYC and the Bay. Pro tip: if I feel scared for my life or property at any point during a transit, you've already lost against a car.
    - discordance 4y ago
      Per mile, cars are by far the most life threatening form of transportation.
      - 4y ago

sealeck 4y ago

Even if (which it almost certainly isn't) what you claim is true, the point of paying taxes is not just about what you immediately, materially gain but (a) to support people on lower incomes and (b) to fund things like R&D projects (e.g. the www is a result of state-funded CERN) and infrastructure which would be too expensive to build personally (e.g. roads, railway tracks to ship goods to ones house), etc

ornornor 4y ago

The corollary is that you live like a king in a country where people could be billionaires or they could be poor, desperate, with untreated mental health issues, nothing to lose, and a loaded gun. On the global scale, I wouldn’t say the US is a beacon of progress and happiness. It’s better than many bottom tier countries but far from top tier countries (which aren’t as liberal, for the most part)

nivenkos 4y ago
What top tier countries? The US is the wealthiest country in the world by miles. It's had the highest GDP every single year for over 100 years continuously. That amount of capital is phenomenal, and part of why Americans enjoy salaries 3-4x higher than even Western Europe in most professional work - Tech, Medicine, Law, truck driving, etc. And that money allows you to work your way up, and buy your own property, etc. which is almost impossible in much of Europe, Canada, etc.
- BossingAround 4y ago
  > The US is the wealthiest country in the world by miles. True, but the point is that most of that wealth is highly concentrated. Hence why the US is not the beacon of happiness and progress.
  - samatman 4y ago
    Balderdash. The median net worth in the US is $125,000 for a household. It's €50,000 in the Netherlands.
- ornornor 4y ago
  Yes on economical metrics. But in happiness, life expectancy, education, equality, prisoners count, literacy, and many other things that arguably matter more in life than $$$ then the US is quite lagging compared to other developed economies.

nivenkos 4y ago

Yeah, and for most working professionals you get sweet FA. Like here in Sweden we pay 40% income tax, 25% sales tax and still have to pay about $30 for each doctor visit. Dentistry is not included in the state health coverage. Neither are annual checkups of any kind, so diagnosis can be difficult and slow, etc. In Sweden, those taxes are just going to those who are lucky enough to have first-hand subsidised apartment contracts, or have loads of children and live off the barnbidrag. Especially asylum seekers (failed or accepted) that get both of those for free, and never have to work or integrate with society. The only major benefit over the US is the semi-decent trade unions which mean full-time work is quite stable and with good vacation allowance.

BossingAround 4y ago
I am not disputing what you're saying about your healthcare system, but if you get hit by a car, I would guess that nobody will be afraid to call an ambulance for fear of the cost. The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. You might take an uber to the hospital in Sweden too, out of convenience, but not out of fear for being stuck with a $1000 bill.
- varispeed 4y ago
  > The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. It's a bit ironic as a couple of months ago I had to call for an ambulance here in the UK when I found someone extremely unwell and they told me I should call an Uber and take that person to A&E myself, because they don't have free ambulances. Then at A&E they had over 3h waiting time for majors. You pay fortune in taxes and you get crap service. Often you have to go privately to see a specialist and you can't deduct that money from your taxes.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    The anecdotes from supposedly-superior socialized medical systems in Europe always throw cold water on USA leftist dreams. The left here has been saying it’s a utopia for a fraction of the cost for decades. The reality is so much more complex.

stetrain 4y ago

How many choices do I have in the US where I can live, shop, eat, travel, etc. without owning, insuring, maintaining, and fueling a car?

Joeri 4y ago

A well run government subsidized system still has choice and competition. In belgium I can choose what school my kids go to, even though all of them are subsidized to the point of costing very little. I can also choose what hospital to go to, or what doctor to see, and that visit will always be subsidized by the public healthcare system, while doctors still are self-employed and can set their own rates (higher rates means I pay more myself). In both systems there is little administration, because the system works the same way for everyone and is straightforward.

seibelj 4y ago
Sadly in the USA, any hint of allowing “choice” with public schooling has you labeled a heretic by one side of our two-party system. While leftists despise monopolies in all business, they worship monopolies when it comes to schooling, no matter how expensive and how terrible the outcomes.

wasmitnetzen 4y ago

There are things money can't buy. It's hard to list things without getting too political, which I don't think this is the right forum for, but there are fundamental differences in European politics vs American politics, and no salary, as high as it might be, can change that.

K0SM0S 4y ago
To me, freedom certainly is one of those things money can't ultimately buy (I'm talking about 99% of the population, not billionaires), and I'm saddened to see it's been going downhill on both sides of the pond for the last 20 odd years. There are differences, but both are unequivocally evolving towards more authoritarian, controlling regimes. And that's a shame, because everything else (health, education, labor, social, even happiness) suffers from that foundational loss.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

Taxes in EU can be high or low depending on where you leave and whether you're employed or work through your own business. Tax rates can go from 5% (Maltese company + Portuguese NHR scheme) to 60% (high earning employees). High tax Europe doesn't make any sense if you ask me, you're not getting much for it. Infrastructure (roads, public departments, police) and public healthcare are terrible in most of EU for the average high earner. Nordic countries are way better in that regards but it's too cold for me to even consider those places. USA healthcare is comparable to the best private healthcare available in EU.