8 ms·

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income and sales tax). So European offers are still much less competitive than the US.

BossingAround 4y ago
"Competitive" is highly relative. It might not be competitive to you, but I'd rather have less money and save a ton on not having to use a car, and not paying thousands of dollars for each hospital visit when I had cancer.
odiroot 4y ago
The difference between UK and some of the Western-EU countries is already significant enough. No need to go straight to USA.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Not so sure, as a junior in the UK I got a raise moving to Spain of all places... from London.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    Probably because you are at a senior level in that market. Few eu countries can compete with the uk in terms of pay and modern tech.
    - kayoone 4y ago
      Working in Berlin tech, I found London salaries not that interesting considering the cost of living is easily 2x of Berlin.
      - yrgulation 4y ago
        Well to be honest london is not an ideal place to live in. But thanks to remote contracting and london rates, the uk market can be quite attractive.
      - cjbgkagh 4y ago
        The money in London is in contracting.
      - 202206241203 4y ago
        That is when you manage to find a flat to rent in Berlin after queueing with 100 other people?
      - mmarq 4y ago
        If you have a family it’s probably 4x. 65-70K in Berlin are roughly equivalent to 200K in London.
  - vultour 4y ago
    Standard contract rate in London is ~500GBP per day, which is incredibly high compared to most of Europe.
    - bjornsing 4y ago
      62.50 GBP = 75.7 USD per hour is “incredibly high”…?
      - vultour 4y ago
        Yes. If your country does not have one of the tech companies mentioned in the article then $75 per hour is a fever dream.
seibelj 4y ago
A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I’d rather keep more of my take-home pay and do without certain services, or better yet choose the provider (and quality / expense) of such services if I want them. Somehow the bureaucracy in the US is still massive, so I can only imagine what far higher tax rates in Europe enable.
- ido 4y ago
  Tax rates at the higher taxed states in the US (like California) are actually not lower than in western europe while still not providing you with all the services western european governments do.
  - I_AM_A_SMURF 4y ago
    For high earners it's still higher in EU, about 50% vs 40% but yeah it's not that significant.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Be aware that those 50% in the EU usually include social security, unemployment, health care and taxes, not just taxes on your salary. Also, it's less than 50% in praxis, 50% are just easier to calculate in your head.
      - pedrosorio 4y ago
        Those 40% in California also include: - Medicare (65+ healthcare), social security (retirement) - California taxes: disability, unemployment, and for low income people, Medi-Cal covers healthcare as well
  - seibelj 4y ago
    I live in Massachusetts, and somehow we actually have fairly low taxation (5.25% flat tax) despite our reputation and being deep blue politically. I average about 30% total taxation in a high tax bracket. If I was trying to avoid taxes on real wealth I would move to Florida for 6 months and do the other 6 in Boston (as have many friends of mine). Why people keep paying California / NYC tax rates in software dev jobs makes no sense anymore.
maccard 4y ago
in some states. On a salary of £120,000 in the UK, you'll take home 60% of your pay [0], meanwhile in California on $145,000 [1] you take home 63%. The real difference is that it's very hard to be paid 120,000 in the UK. [0] https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [1] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#H1zdEHOS3c https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#...
- varispeed 4y ago
  This is a bit misleading, because on £120k salary the employer has to additionally pay £17k of employer's NI which comes from your salary budget. So in real terms you make £137k and your take home is about 53% (and it's get worse as your pay goes up as you are losing personal allowance and your take home quickly becomes less than 50%). It does not account for Apprenticeship Levy. It's a quite nasty way for the government to hide the true level of taxation from employees.
  - maccard 4y ago
    There's always a hidden cost. There's also the fact that on 120k an employer is required to contribute 3% and likely does so via salary sacrifice which changes the numbers again. The number I picked for California is also on the higher end, other states are lower again. All thats to say a direct general comparison isn't possible but it's not right to claim that the west has a higher tax burden either the numbers are dangerously close in many cases.
  - rowanajmarshall 4y ago
    The UK handles this quite well, the same author as this post also wrote this: https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1511394247500566533 https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1511394247500566533
- digianarchist 4y ago
  There can be huge tax advantages in the US compared to Canada or the EU. My effective rate in California is 24% because I can file my taxes jointly which isn't possible elsewhere.
V-2 4y ago
In Poland most software engineers (at least the senior ones) are self-employed due to fiscal reasons. It means paying either a 19% flat tax rate with the possibility of cost deductions, or outright 12% (no deductions then). You can also apply for an "intellectual property" tax relief (called IP Box), which is somewhat tricky, requires legal assistance and requires patience, but it can drive your income tax rate down to a mere 5%. Of course this is self-employment, so you don't get paid sick leave or holidays, and labor law doesn't protect you (not really a problem in today's IT market) - however you still have full access to healthcare just like on a regular job contract.
mupuff1234 4y ago
But on the other hand raising a family is probably a lot less expensive in Europe on average.

BossingAround 4y ago

"Competitive" is highly relative. It might not be competitive to you, but I'd rather have less money and save a ton on not having to use a car, and not paying thousands of dollars for each hospital visit when I had cancer.

odiroot 4y ago

The difference between UK and some of the Western-EU countries is already significant enough. No need to go straight to USA.

nivenkos 4y ago
Not so sure, as a junior in the UK I got a raise moving to Spain of all places... from London.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  Probably because you are at a senior level in that market. Few eu countries can compete with the uk in terms of pay and modern tech.
  - kayoone 4y ago
    Working in Berlin tech, I found London salaries not that interesting considering the cost of living is easily 2x of Berlin.
    - yrgulation 4y ago
      Well to be honest london is not an ideal place to live in. But thanks to remote contracting and london rates, the uk market can be quite attractive.
    - cjbgkagh 4y ago
      The money in London is in contracting.
    - 202206241203 4y ago
      That is when you manage to find a flat to rent in Berlin after queueing with 100 other people?
    - mmarq 4y ago
      If you have a family it’s probably 4x. 65-70K in Berlin are roughly equivalent to 200K in London.
- vultour 4y ago
  Standard contract rate in London is ~500GBP per day, which is incredibly high compared to most of Europe.
  - bjornsing 4y ago
    62.50 GBP = 75.7 USD per hour is “incredibly high”…?
    - vultour 4y ago
      Yes. If your country does not have one of the tech companies mentioned in the article then $75 per hour is a fever dream.

seibelj 4y ago

A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I’d rather keep more of my take-home pay and do without certain services, or better yet choose the provider (and quality / expense) of such services if I want them. Somehow the bureaucracy in the US is still massive, so I can only imagine what far higher tax rates in Europe enable.

ido 4y ago
Tax rates at the higher taxed states in the US (like California) are actually not lower than in western europe while still not providing you with all the services western european governments do.
- I_AM_A_SMURF 4y ago
  For high earners it's still higher in EU, about 50% vs 40% but yeah it's not that significant.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Be aware that those 50% in the EU usually include social security, unemployment, health care and taxes, not just taxes on your salary. Also, it's less than 50% in praxis, 50% are just easier to calculate in your head.
    - pedrosorio 4y ago
      Those 40% in California also include: - Medicare (65+ healthcare), social security (retirement) - California taxes: disability, unemployment, and for low income people, Medi-Cal covers healthcare as well
- seibelj 4y ago
  I live in Massachusetts, and somehow we actually have fairly low taxation (5.25% flat tax) despite our reputation and being deep blue politically. I average about 30% total taxation in a high tax bracket. If I was trying to avoid taxes on real wealth I would move to Florida for 6 months and do the other 6 in Boston (as have many friends of mine). Why people keep paying California / NYC tax rates in software dev jobs makes no sense anymore.

maccard 4y ago

in some states. On a salary of £120,000 in the UK, you'll take home 60% of your pay [0], meanwhile in California on $145,000 [1] you take home 63%. The real difference is that it's very hard to be paid 120,000 in the UK. [0] https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [1] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#H1zdEHOS3c https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#...

varispeed 4y ago
This is a bit misleading, because on £120k salary the employer has to additionally pay £17k of employer's NI which comes from your salary budget. So in real terms you make £137k and your take home is about 53% (and it's get worse as your pay goes up as you are losing personal allowance and your take home quickly becomes less than 50%). It does not account for Apprenticeship Levy. It's a quite nasty way for the government to hide the true level of taxation from employees.
- maccard 4y ago
  There's always a hidden cost. There's also the fact that on 120k an employer is required to contribute 3% and likely does so via salary sacrifice which changes the numbers again. The number I picked for California is also on the higher end, other states are lower again. All thats to say a direct general comparison isn't possible but it's not right to claim that the west has a higher tax burden either the numbers are dangerously close in many cases.
- rowanajmarshall 4y ago
  The UK handles this quite well, the same author as this post also wrote this: https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1511394247500566533 https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1511394247500566533
digianarchist 4y ago
There can be huge tax advantages in the US compared to Canada or the EU. My effective rate in California is 24% because I can file my taxes jointly which isn't possible elsewhere.

V-2 4y ago

In Poland most software engineers (at least the senior ones) are self-employed due to fiscal reasons. It means paying either a 19% flat tax rate with the possibility of cost deductions, or outright 12% (no deductions then). You can also apply for an "intellectual property" tax relief (called IP Box), which is somewhat tricky, requires legal assistance and requires patience, but it can drive your income tax rate down to a mere 5%. Of course this is self-employment, so you don't get paid sick leave or holidays, and labor law doesn't protect you (not really a problem in today's IT market) - however you still have full access to healthcare just like on a regular job contract.

mupuff1234 4y ago

But on the other hand raising a family is probably a lot less expensive in Europe on average.