4 ms·

You can turn this question into BS, and provide a BS answer, but the correct way to respond is not to focus on the scenario (there are only a few themes anyway)

by skeeter2020 4y ago

You can turn this question into BS, and provide a BS answer, but the correct way to respond is not to focus on the scenario (there are only a few themes anyway) but use it as an opportunity to share your values, perspective and strategy. This says a lot about the candidate, especially if the resolution failed. Even if you think LC is more representative of the type of work you'll end up doing, it's probably not assigned in discrete packages every day for you to complete; there's a lot of the softer "difficult challenge" stuff around it. If you're only optimizing for LC you're tackling the part of the job that will be commoditized by a global workforce and even machines first.

kubanczyk 4y ago
> the correct way to respond You actually said it out loud, oopsie! The problem is, if I would share my true personal values, true personal perspective and true personal strategy, I become vulnerable and I open a discussion that I cannot expect to end well. Thus, instead I share my "business" values, which is to say bullshit, because they are in a quite different ballpark than my actual values. Of course the problem can be instantly solved by changing the definition of the word "problem" to exclude the mental and moral hassle of maintaining two complete personas. (`s/hassle/amazing opportunity/`) At which point business-you can honestly talk about your business-values, and private-you about your separate private-values.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  “…and I open a discussion that I cannot expect to end well”. Why do you believe this is the case? Do you believe your values are far outside the norm?
  - hinkley 4y ago
    I am cursed to be about eight-ten years ahead of the industry on development philosophy. Half the stuff I was begging people to do in 2005 was de rigeur by 2015. People who are trying to catch up with the last things they weren’t early adopters for don’t want to hear about the next three things after. And they sure as hell don’t want to hear about how much of our difficulties with software come down to self delusion and misplaced optimism. Or how that new tech is old tech with a coat of paint and how it only lasted four years last time. I don’t often win this argument until after something really bad happens and everyone is looking for a deathbed conversion. Until then I’m just some weirdo street preacher. So no, I’m not going to share all of my opinions with people I just met. Unless I’m specifically trying to fuck with them.
    - insightcheck 4y ago
      Out of curiosity, could you share some examples of standards that you were prescient to?
      - awillen 4y ago
        Username checks out.
      - hinkley 4y ago
        I’m very relieved that we have finally seen the sense in about 75% of the stuff Kent Beck wrote down in ‘99. Not that he invented most of those things, because a lot of them were done somewhere in isolation in the 80’s but more seeing the complimentary nature. That doing 6 things could be 8 times as good as doing none of them. When the refactoring book came out some of us said, “oh yeah, so that’s what you call that” and half the people said “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen, why would I ever waste my time doing that?” I still meet people like this, but many try to keep it to themselves. Kanban seemed so intuitive that I accidentally made a kanban board in 1995, when the only thing I knew about Japan was tiny trees. But really the biggest thing for me was that I was poorly served by the education system and spent my first few years thinking there was something wrong with me instead of something wrong with them, so you ten I was having introspective conversations with myself and by twelve overhearing other frustrated learners and interjecting things like, “yeah that didn’t make sense to me at all until I thought of it this way”. The teachers who say they learn as much as their students aren’t lying (or at least not all of them). Watching - actually watching- people struggle with things teaches you a lot about that thing, that person, and people in general (problem solving and task management). Being able to take a proposed solution and extrapolate on whether this will help or hurt a lot of people. Most only get as far as whether it’ll be awesome for them or horrible, and sometimes they’re wrong. What’s difficult though is that you see is that what people think they know and how they know it is usually wrong, for better and for worse. Most people aren’t open to hearing that until they are well and truly stuck. There are people who make their whole life about helping people with this. One of the advantages they have is that they are not personally invested in your experience, because they aren’t sharing in it. Whereas your coworkers are either stuck in it with you, or seen as distant and uncaring because they aren’t getting upset too.
  - willhinsa 4y ago
    If I was applying at let's say Enron or [REDACTED], I wouldn't exactly be comfortable giving my opinion of their business model according to my values. I mean, that's why I don't work at any of the [REDACTED] companies, but to each their own.
  - rexpop 4y ago
    Certainly I can't bring up my penchant for unionization in a job interview, nor would I dare bring up my values as an ethnic minority: I don't want to face avoidable prejudice.
    - germinalphrase 4y ago
      That’s fair. In my question, I was think more about the Enron/REDACTED scenario commented on below - so thank you for the nudge.
    - musingsole 4y ago
      Except there are companies/roles where those values would be just fine if not desired. The assumption that all gigs have a rigid culture they're selecting for and programming for is defeatist. If those things are your values -- and not just contrarion reactions -- why would you hide and compromise them instead of finding a role that matches who you are and what you want in the world? It's not often entire industries are privileged enough to behave this way, but it has certainly been the case with SWEs
      - rexpop 4y ago
        There are no companies where union values are desired by management, and there are no companies where ethnic minorities are free from discrimination (although there's always nepotism, but that's hardly a sustainable economic practice.) I thought it was common knowledge that "all gigs have a rigid culture they're selecting for." I am confused and surprised by your assertion that the status quo is otherwise. Again, "finding a role that matches who you are" is easier said than done for most people on earth. Perhaps you've lucked into a privileged identity in a region of relatively greater social mobility. (I certainly have, but not without limit, and that is why I dare not risk "bringing my whole self to work" and must, instead, compromise. But, then again, why should we tolerate "whole selves" at work? If you've an obsessive penchant for matchbox cars — frankly, you can leave that at home as far as I'm concerned.)
        musingsole 4y ago
  - gammabetadelta 4y ago
    it only takes one value to be two sigma outside of the norm to never be hired you can be normal on seven values but have one hang up and bam you're a weirdo
Jensson 4y ago
Problem is that the question optimizes to hire the most toxic of people: great social skills but no morals. You are probably better off not asking it at all, every such hire will destroy parts of your culture and make it look like it was someone else's fault making them harder to fire than any other kind of toxic employee.

kubanczyk 4y ago

> the correct way to respond You actually said it out loud, oopsie! The problem is, if I would share my true personal values, true personal perspective and true personal strategy, I become vulnerable and I open a discussion that I cannot expect to end well. Thus, instead I share my "business" values, which is to say bullshit, because they are in a quite different ballpark than my actual values. Of course the problem can be instantly solved by changing the definition of the word "problem" to exclude the mental and moral hassle of maintaining two complete personas. (`s/hassle/amazing opportunity/`) At which point business-you can honestly talk about your business-values, and private-you about your separate private-values.

germinalphrase 4y ago
“…and I open a discussion that I cannot expect to end well”. Why do you believe this is the case? Do you believe your values are far outside the norm?
- hinkley 4y ago
  I am cursed to be about eight-ten years ahead of the industry on development philosophy. Half the stuff I was begging people to do in 2005 was de rigeur by 2015. People who are trying to catch up with the last things they weren’t early adopters for don’t want to hear about the next three things after. And they sure as hell don’t want to hear about how much of our difficulties with software come down to self delusion and misplaced optimism. Or how that new tech is old tech with a coat of paint and how it only lasted four years last time. I don’t often win this argument until after something really bad happens and everyone is looking for a deathbed conversion. Until then I’m just some weirdo street preacher. So no, I’m not going to share all of my opinions with people I just met. Unless I’m specifically trying to fuck with them.
  - insightcheck 4y ago
    Out of curiosity, could you share some examples of standards that you were prescient to?
    - awillen 4y ago
      Username checks out.
    - hinkley 4y ago
      I’m very relieved that we have finally seen the sense in about 75% of the stuff Kent Beck wrote down in ‘99. Not that he invented most of those things, because a lot of them were done somewhere in isolation in the 80’s but more seeing the complimentary nature. That doing 6 things could be 8 times as good as doing none of them. When the refactoring book came out some of us said, “oh yeah, so that’s what you call that” and half the people said “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen, why would I ever waste my time doing that?” I still meet people like this, but many try to keep it to themselves. Kanban seemed so intuitive that I accidentally made a kanban board in 1995, when the only thing I knew about Japan was tiny trees. But really the biggest thing for me was that I was poorly served by the education system and spent my first few years thinking there was something wrong with me instead of something wrong with them, so you ten I was having introspective conversations with myself and by twelve overhearing other frustrated learners and interjecting things like, “yeah that didn’t make sense to me at all until I thought of it this way”. The teachers who say they learn as much as their students aren’t lying (or at least not all of them). Watching - actually watching- people struggle with things teaches you a lot about that thing, that person, and people in general (problem solving and task management). Being able to take a proposed solution and extrapolate on whether this will help or hurt a lot of people. Most only get as far as whether it’ll be awesome for them or horrible, and sometimes they’re wrong. What’s difficult though is that you see is that what people think they know and how they know it is usually wrong, for better and for worse. Most people aren’t open to hearing that until they are well and truly stuck. There are people who make their whole life about helping people with this. One of the advantages they have is that they are not personally invested in your experience, because they aren’t sharing in it. Whereas your coworkers are either stuck in it with you, or seen as distant and uncaring because they aren’t getting upset too.
- willhinsa 4y ago
  If I was applying at let's say Enron or [REDACTED], I wouldn't exactly be comfortable giving my opinion of their business model according to my values. I mean, that's why I don't work at any of the [REDACTED] companies, but to each their own.
- rexpop 4y ago
  Certainly I can't bring up my penchant for unionization in a job interview, nor would I dare bring up my values as an ethnic minority: I don't want to face avoidable prejudice.
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    That’s fair. In my question, I was think more about the Enron/REDACTED scenario commented on below - so thank you for the nudge.
  - musingsole 4y ago
    Except there are companies/roles where those values would be just fine if not desired. The assumption that all gigs have a rigid culture they're selecting for and programming for is defeatist. If those things are your values -- and not just contrarion reactions -- why would you hide and compromise them instead of finding a role that matches who you are and what you want in the world? It's not often entire industries are privileged enough to behave this way, but it has certainly been the case with SWEs
    - rexpop 4y ago
      There are no companies where union values are desired by management, and there are no companies where ethnic minorities are free from discrimination (although there's always nepotism, but that's hardly a sustainable economic practice.) I thought it was common knowledge that "all gigs have a rigid culture they're selecting for." I am confused and surprised by your assertion that the status quo is otherwise. Again, "finding a role that matches who you are" is easier said than done for most people on earth. Perhaps you've lucked into a privileged identity in a region of relatively greater social mobility. (I certainly have, but not without limit, and that is why I dare not risk "bringing my whole self to work" and must, instead, compromise. But, then again, why should we tolerate "whole selves" at work? If you've an obsessive penchant for matchbox cars — frankly, you can leave that at home as far as I'm concerned.)
      - musingsole 4y ago
- gammabetadelta 4y ago
  it only takes one value to be two sigma outside of the norm to never be hired you can be normal on seven values but have one hang up and bam you're a weirdo

Jensson 4y ago

Problem is that the question optimizes to hire the most toxic of people: great social skills but no morals. You are probably better off not asking it at all, every such hire will destroy parts of your culture and make it look like it was someone else's fault making them harder to fire than any other kind of toxic employee.