14 ms·

ShotSpotter defamation lawsuit against Vice has been dismissed

167 points by danso 4y ago

jbirer 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 4y ago
  ? It seems the news in question is not fake.
mesofile 4y ago
Direct link to ruling: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22077446-shotspotter-inc-v-media_-2022-del-super-lexis-268 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22077446-shotspotter... Original Vice News story: https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-shotspotter-to-alter-evidence-from-gunshot-detecting-ai https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-sh... Previous discussion of above story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959755 Previous related discussion: "A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686
- dmix 4y ago
  Also a link to the original complaint filed by ShotSpotter, which someone else posted here but has been flagged dead: https://shotspottercomplaint.com/gallery/20211011%20ShotSpotter%20v.%20Vice%20Complaint%20and%20Exhibits.orig.pdf https://shotspottercomplaint.com/gallery/20211011%20ShotSpot... This provides some interesting background on the company (obviously biased)
aaron695 4y ago
xchaotic 4y ago
ShotSpotter execs learn about Streisand effect the hard way. Living in Europe, I have never heard of the company, now I have.
- discretion22 4y ago
  Alas, because you have not heard of them, does not mean your local police have not heard of them (they are probably using them already - even if you have astonishingly low gun crime in Europe, making the exercise a pointless waste of money). In Europe, companies selling to the police are extremely discrete and generally keep a hyper low profile, particularly when selling technology (dubious or otherwise). These deals generally work by 'befriending' politicians who can instruct police to purchase and that's all back-room type of stuff. Generally, it's when a politician wants credit by claiming some success in reducing/detecting crime that these things get any press. The publicity focuses not on the company, but on the genius nature of the politicians decision making.
  - InCityDreams 4y ago
    "...even if you have astonishingly low gun crime in Europe...." Er, no. You have astonishingly high gun crime in the States. Sorry 'bout that.
    - _jal 4y ago
      You're getting downvoted of course, but it is true - the US is the outlier among rich nations. Per capita, the US is just behind Panama; in absolute numbers, Brazil is ahead by about 14%. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-violence-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-viole... Comparing just to other rich countries shows stark differences: https://www.healthdata.org/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier https://www.healthdata.org/acting-data/gun-violence-united-s... It isn't even close.
    - rpmisms 4y ago
      Our gun crime rates per gun are flabbergastingly low. Our gun crime rates per capita are excellent, except in some of the largest cities.
timbit42 4y ago
I thought this was about VICE, the Versatile Commodore Emulator.
ceejayoz 4y ago
We had a similar case of ShotSpotter faking shots for the cops in my city. https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2017/11/17/shot-spotter-technology-relshot-spotter-technology-coming-under-increased-scrutiny-judicial-communit/844335001/ https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2017/11/17/s... > On April 1, 2016, the ShotSpotter sensors picked up several audio bursts from a northwest Rochester neighborhood. Unable through its algorithms to detect a specific location, the system did not alert 911 or police. The system also thought the sounds to be the whirring blades of a helicopter, and not gunfire. > Police notified ShotSpotter of the shooting, and the company revisited the audio from the scene. The analysts at first thought there were three shots, then changed to number to four, then five. Analysts found the fifth shot after a prosecution request to review the audio again, prosecutors say. Never any evidence he fired a shot. They needed the fifth shot “found” because the cop shot four times, so magically it was! Reuters did a more detailed expose later: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-rochester-trial/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-poli...
- jbirer 4y ago
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Have you considered that if this happens every time, that the miscalibration might be on your end?
    - gebruikersnaam 4y ago
      You're on to something: "nothing happens until I arrive there"
  - xbar 4y ago
    Possibly the greatest abuse of "to be fair..." I have ever seen.
  - TillE 4y ago
    That's just replacing their anecdotes with your anecdotes. Why not look at actual data, which is likely to tell you that crime has plunged everywhere since the 80s.
1-6 4y ago
Genuine question though, can one get accurate/precise triangulation from microphones? This isn't comparable to Richter scales distributed across the land to measure locations of earthquakes. Are we dealing with sham tech?
- mlyle 4y ago
  In principle you can. The biggest problem are reflections and multipath (which are also problems for locating earthquakes). Also, classifying whether a noise came from a gun, when heard from far away in an urban environment with lots of other noises around, is hard. Simplest method is trilateration. By knowing the travel time from multiple places, you can figure out the source point.
- twawaaay 4y ago
  Sure we can. And it is surprisingly easy. Sound waves travel 300m every second. If you can get devices synchronised to 1ms (which isn't very difficult given very easy access to GPS which is orders of magnitude more accurate), you can triangulate to at least within 1m. There is some complication like the sound travels at different speed depending on pressure of the gas. The sound might have also arrived to the microphone on not the shortest path. The shortest might have been obstructed, for example, and what you got is a reflection off of a distant object or even sound that was "bent" by layers of air with different properties. But if you have ever heard a gun shot, most of the time you got first the sound wave that reached you directly and then possibly some reflections. By analysing those reflections and assuming that if multiple gunshots were made, they were made at roughly the same spot, it is possible to discern whether you heard one gunshot with reflections or multiple series resulting from multiple shots.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
VICE is so frustratingly good at doing investigative journalism while simultaneously being filled to the brim with total crap.
- mwt 4y ago
  I was also surprised to learn (years ago) BuzzFeed has a decently-sized investigative team
  - NobodyNada 4y ago
    *had: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/22/buzzfeed-investors-have-pushed-ceo-jonah-peretti-to-shut-down-newsroom.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/22/buzzfeed-investors-have-push...
- lom 4y ago
  What for crap?
- millzlane 4y ago
  I think some of the total crap is what drew me to them. I don't think it was the hard hitting journalism as it was the bit of gonzo style stuff.
- gaws 4y ago
  > VICE is so frustratingly good at doing investigative journalism while simultaneously being filled to the brim with total crap. People should focus on their investigative stuff rather than the clickbait. They'll be less mad in the long run.
dontbenebby 4y ago
Can they abuse those mics to pick up human conversation?
- dmix 4y ago
  They claim in the complaint that the microphones protect privacy by only recording audio when sharp high pitched sounds happen and they limit recordings to 30 seconds. Of course they are listening 24/7, it's just the persistence part that's capped. The microphones are also high up, like in light posts, so it's not the best place for audio surveillance.
  - dontbenebby 4y ago
    You'd be surprised how much conversation you can hear from 30 feet straight up. I'd worry someone can tap the line the way you used to be able to clip a butt set to a junction box surrounded obscured by a tree planted by the neighborhood association and listen in on the wine moms discussing who they're cheating with this week. (To be clear, that's something you do a few times as a minor, then hopefully learn your lesson that knowing too much is not fun and it's better to avoid abusing your access at all costs if you value your sanity)
einsty 4y ago
More research from Chicagoland on ShotSpotter here too. Hats off to the good folks at MacArthur Justice Center https://endpolicesurveillance.com/ https://endpolicesurveillance.com/

167 points by danso 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 4y ago
? It seems the news in question is not fake.

Direct link to ruling: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22077446-shotspotter-inc-v-media_-2022-del-super-lexis-268 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22077446-shotspotter... Original Vice News story: https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-shotspotter-to-alter-evidence-from-gunshot-detecting-ai https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-sh... Previous discussion of above story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959755 Previous related discussion: "A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686

dmix 4y ago
Also a link to the original complaint filed by ShotSpotter, which someone else posted here but has been flagged dead: https://shotspottercomplaint.com/gallery/20211011%20ShotSpotter%20v.%20Vice%20Complaint%20and%20Exhibits.orig.pdf https://shotspottercomplaint.com/gallery/20211011%20ShotSpot... This provides some interesting background on the company (obviously biased)

aaron695 4y ago

xchaotic 4y ago

ShotSpotter execs learn about Streisand effect the hard way. Living in Europe, I have never heard of the company, now I have.

discretion22 4y ago
Alas, because you have not heard of them, does not mean your local police have not heard of them (they are probably using them already - even if you have astonishingly low gun crime in Europe, making the exercise a pointless waste of money). In Europe, companies selling to the police are extremely discrete and generally keep a hyper low profile, particularly when selling technology (dubious or otherwise). These deals generally work by 'befriending' politicians who can instruct police to purchase and that's all back-room type of stuff. Generally, it's when a politician wants credit by claiming some success in reducing/detecting crime that these things get any press. The publicity focuses not on the company, but on the genius nature of the politicians decision making.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  "...even if you have astonishingly low gun crime in Europe...." Er, no. You have astonishingly high gun crime in the States. Sorry 'bout that.
  - _jal 4y ago
    You're getting downvoted of course, but it is true - the US is the outlier among rich nations. Per capita, the US is just behind Panama; in absolute numbers, Brazil is ahead by about 14%. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-violence-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-viole... Comparing just to other rich countries shows stark differences: https://www.healthdata.org/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier https://www.healthdata.org/acting-data/gun-violence-united-s... It isn't even close.
  - rpmisms 4y ago
    Our gun crime rates per gun are flabbergastingly low. Our gun crime rates per capita are excellent, except in some of the largest cities.

timbit42 4y ago

I thought this was about VICE, the Versatile Commodore Emulator.

ceejayoz 4y ago

We had a similar case of ShotSpotter faking shots for the cops in my city. https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2017/11/17/shot-spotter-technology-relshot-spotter-technology-coming-under-increased-scrutiny-judicial-communit/844335001/ https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2017/11/17/s... > On April 1, 2016, the ShotSpotter sensors picked up several audio bursts from a northwest Rochester neighborhood. Unable through its algorithms to detect a specific location, the system did not alert 911 or police. The system also thought the sounds to be the whirring blades of a helicopter, and not gunfire. > Police notified ShotSpotter of the shooting, and the company revisited the audio from the scene. The analysts at first thought there were three shots, then changed to number to four, then five. Analysts found the fifth shot after a prosecution request to review the audio again, prosecutors say. Never any evidence he fired a shot. They needed the fifth shot “found” because the cop shot four times, so magically it was! Reuters did a more detailed expose later: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-rochester-trial/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-poli...

jbirer 4y ago
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Have you considered that if this happens every time, that the miscalibration might be on your end?
  - gebruikersnaam 4y ago
    You're on to something: "nothing happens until I arrive there"
- xbar 4y ago
  Possibly the greatest abuse of "to be fair..." I have ever seen.
- TillE 4y ago
  That's just replacing their anecdotes with your anecdotes. Why not look at actual data, which is likely to tell you that crime has plunged everywhere since the 80s.

1-6 4y ago

Genuine question though, can one get accurate/precise triangulation from microphones? This isn't comparable to Richter scales distributed across the land to measure locations of earthquakes. Are we dealing with sham tech?

mlyle 4y ago
In principle you can. The biggest problem are reflections and multipath (which are also problems for locating earthquakes). Also, classifying whether a noise came from a gun, when heard from far away in an urban environment with lots of other noises around, is hard. Simplest method is trilateration. By knowing the travel time from multiple places, you can figure out the source point.
twawaaay 4y ago
Sure we can. And it is surprisingly easy. Sound waves travel 300m every second. If you can get devices synchronised to 1ms (which isn't very difficult given very easy access to GPS which is orders of magnitude more accurate), you can triangulate to at least within 1m. There is some complication like the sound travels at different speed depending on pressure of the gas. The sound might have also arrived to the microphone on not the shortest path. The shortest might have been obstructed, for example, and what you got is a reflection off of a distant object or even sound that was "bent" by layers of air with different properties. But if you have ever heard a gun shot, most of the time you got first the sound wave that reached you directly and then possibly some reflections. By analysing those reflections and assuming that if multiple gunshots were made, they were made at roughly the same spot, it is possible to discern whether you heard one gunshot with reflections or multiple series resulting from multiple shots.

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

VICE is so frustratingly good at doing investigative journalism while simultaneously being filled to the brim with total crap.

mwt 4y ago
I was also surprised to learn (years ago) BuzzFeed has a decently-sized investigative team
- NobodyNada 4y ago
  *had: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/22/buzzfeed-investors-have-pushed-ceo-jonah-peretti-to-shut-down-newsroom.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/22/buzzfeed-investors-have-push...
lom 4y ago
What for crap?
millzlane 4y ago
I think some of the total crap is what drew me to them. I don't think it was the hard hitting journalism as it was the bit of gonzo style stuff.
gaws 4y ago
> VICE is so frustratingly good at doing investigative journalism while simultaneously being filled to the brim with total crap. People should focus on their investigative stuff rather than the clickbait. They'll be less mad in the long run.

dontbenebby 4y ago

Can they abuse those mics to pick up human conversation?

dmix 4y ago
They claim in the complaint that the microphones protect privacy by only recording audio when sharp high pitched sounds happen and they limit recordings to 30 seconds. Of course they are listening 24/7, it's just the persistence part that's capped. The microphones are also high up, like in light posts, so it's not the best place for audio surveillance.
- dontbenebby 4y ago
  You'd be surprised how much conversation you can hear from 30 feet straight up. I'd worry someone can tap the line the way you used to be able to clip a butt set to a junction box surrounded obscured by a tree planted by the neighborhood association and listen in on the wine moms discussing who they're cheating with this week. (To be clear, that's something you do a few times as a minor, then hopefully learn your lesson that knowing too much is not fun and it's better to avoid abusing your access at all costs if you value your sanity)

einsty 4y ago

More research from Chicagoland on ShotSpotter here too. Hats off to the good folks at MacArthur Justice Center https://endpolicesurveillance.com/ https://endpolicesurveillance.com/