4 ms·

As a former child, I truly understand that a lack of sleep is a problem in teens, but I think this solution is probably worse for everybody. 1) The flipside to

As a former child, I truly understand that a lack of sleep is a problem in teens, but I think this solution is probably worse for everybody. 1) The flipside to starting much later is that kids will be exiting schools later. Want to participate in some after school activities or clubs that aren't physically in school? A HS kid wants to hold down a little part time job so she can save to buy that first car or afford that summer trip she wants? Any activities out of school become much more difficult to manage if the exiting time moves any later. And these extracurriculars are also a big part of many peoples' lives. 2) I think it's naive to think that kids will get much extra sleep regardless of the school starting time. Their need for socialization and leisure activities out of school doesn't suddenly vanish if school starts later: they just get shifted. If you tell kids that they can manage to wake up at 9 instead of 7 and still make it to school on time, they'll just tend to stay up about 2 hours later playing games, watching movies, or chatting with friends. The end result might be about the same amount of sleep. 3) Logistically, it's hard enough for most parents to see their kids for a few minutes and deal with getting their kids out of the door in the morning (or driving them to school) when their wakeup times roughly coincide and they can get a little breakfast together or have a few minutes to chat. Trying to arrange a much different school schedule for kids is going to present a lot more difficulties to working parents, particularly if the kid has some special needs, is a tad rebellious about going to school, or you have to drive them for some other reason. Just thinking out loud here, but I'd say that getting rid of the nightly busy work (homework) is a better way to fix teens schedules. They already spend enough time at school learning. Stop forcing them to waste an hour or two every night regurgitating mostly busy work and then feeling like crap and needing to stay up another few hours decompressing. Let them get their fill of fun and socialization after a long day. Without the burden of homework, most teens have enough extra time in the day to get a little extra rest and still have enough to unwind and feel like a human.

dqpb 4y ago
> The flipside to starting much later is that kids will be exiting schools later Or they could just give that time back. Maybe things have changed, but back when I was in school, almost every class was a waste of time.
- harmon 4y ago
  Even if you only take courses that aren't wastes of time, there just isn't that much to do on a typical day. I remember when I was in school I was taking something like 5 AP courses senior year but still had multiple study halls per day, a useless homeroom which was basically a buffer for people getting to school late, a gym class, and a 40 minute lunch. Almost half the day was time not spent in lecture. A lot of the time is literally babysitting. This is how people can go to college and spend comparatively little time in class yet learn more than they did in high school.
eikenberry 4y ago
1) They wouldn't need to get out any later. Most of the school day is basically baby sitting and they could easily fit the actual teaching in <4 hours. 2) There have been bunches of studies that show teenagers don't get proper sleep specifically when they get up early. There is something about that age that requires sleeping later to get good rest. No matter when they go to bed. 3) Who says their waking coincides with the current times? Doesn't for us. Something like 9:30 or 10:00 would.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > 1) They wouldn't need to get out any later. Most of the school day is basically baby sitting and they could easily fit the actual teaching in <4 hours. You have reinvented the German Gymnasium (grammar school). Congratulations.
  - eikenberry 4y ago
    Never heard of that. Doesn't surprise me that the Germans came up with a more efficient education system.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  I think we're in agreement that sleep is an issue for a lot of kids, but the devil is in a ton of details about how society is organized. To comment on your points... > 1) They wouldn't need to get out any later. Most of the school day is basically baby sitting and they could easily fit the actual teaching in <4 hours. I agree that they wouldn't need to get out any later and that most of the school day is a waste and can be radically compressed, but I sincerely doubt that this is what would happen. If we're talking about showing up to school later and leaving at the same time, I'd say that's a big win over the current situation. Please tell me I've misread things and this is what we're talking about. I'd be happy to have that be the outcome, but I doubt it. > 2) There have been bunches of studies that show teenagers don't get proper sleep specifically when they get up early. There is something about that age that requires sleeping later to get good rest. No matter when they go to bed. I've seen similar tendencies in the studies I've come across as well, but I'm not convinced that the stats are interpreted correctly based on human nature. My thinking is that the people who need sleep the most probably aren't going to go to bed at a sane time and end up with a large net sleep gain. That said, I'm a little open-minded about this point applying to many (but not all people) > 3) Who says their waking coincides with the current times? Doesn't for us. Something like 9:30 or 10:00 would. Everybody's job and life situation is different, but I'd bet that a lot of lower income people have to deal with getting to work earlier, and have more transportation issues (trying to connect to multiple busses and trains, etc) and more complex childcare requirements necessitating less overall time flexibility in the morning. I'd wager it's largely the technical, white-collar class that can show up later and generally has a quicker path to work (work in pajamas in living room, or hop into the car in the driveway and drive to work with no connecting delays)

dqpb 4y ago

> The flipside to starting much later is that kids will be exiting schools later Or they could just give that time back. Maybe things have changed, but back when I was in school, almost every class was a waste of time.

harmon 4y ago
Even if you only take courses that aren't wastes of time, there just isn't that much to do on a typical day. I remember when I was in school I was taking something like 5 AP courses senior year but still had multiple study halls per day, a useless homeroom which was basically a buffer for people getting to school late, a gym class, and a 40 minute lunch. Almost half the day was time not spent in lecture. A lot of the time is literally babysitting. This is how people can go to college and spend comparatively little time in class yet learn more than they did in high school.

eikenberry 4y ago

1) They wouldn't need to get out any later. Most of the school day is basically baby sitting and they could easily fit the actual teaching in <4 hours. 2) There have been bunches of studies that show teenagers don't get proper sleep specifically when they get up early. There is something about that age that requires sleeping later to get good rest. No matter when they go to bed. 3) Who says their waking coincides with the current times? Doesn't for us. Something like 9:30 or 10:00 would.

barry-cotter 4y ago
> 1) They wouldn't need to get out any later. Most of the school day is basically baby sitting and they could easily fit the actual teaching in <4 hours. You have reinvented the German Gymnasium (grammar school). Congratulations.
- eikenberry 4y ago
  Never heard of that. Doesn't surprise me that the Germans came up with a more efficient education system.
logicalmonster 4y ago
I think we're in agreement that sleep is an issue for a lot of kids, but the devil is in a ton of details about how society is organized. To comment on your points... > 1) They wouldn't need to get out any later. Most of the school day is basically baby sitting and they could easily fit the actual teaching in <4 hours. I agree that they wouldn't need to get out any later and that most of the school day is a waste and can be radically compressed, but I sincerely doubt that this is what would happen. If we're talking about showing up to school later and leaving at the same time, I'd say that's a big win over the current situation. Please tell me I've misread things and this is what we're talking about. I'd be happy to have that be the outcome, but I doubt it. > 2) There have been bunches of studies that show teenagers don't get proper sleep specifically when they get up early. There is something about that age that requires sleeping later to get good rest. No matter when they go to bed. I've seen similar tendencies in the studies I've come across as well, but I'm not convinced that the stats are interpreted correctly based on human nature. My thinking is that the people who need sleep the most probably aren't going to go to bed at a sane time and end up with a large net sleep gain. That said, I'm a little open-minded about this point applying to many (but not all people) > 3) Who says their waking coincides with the current times? Doesn't for us. Something like 9:30 or 10:00 would. Everybody's job and life situation is different, but I'd bet that a lot of lower income people have to deal with getting to work earlier, and have more transportation issues (trying to connect to multiple busses and trains, etc) and more complex childcare requirements necessitating less overall time flexibility in the morning. I'd wager it's largely the technical, white-collar class that can show up later and generally has a quicker path to work (work in pajamas in living room, or hop into the car in the driveway and drive to work with no connecting delays)