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> It sounds like you were successfully sheltered from secular and liberal ideas If your utility function is "optimize for the life outcomes of my children", ex

by wyager 4y ago

> It sounds like you were successfully sheltered from secular and liberal ideas If your utility function is "optimize for the life outcomes of my children", experimental evidence suggests this is a good thing. If your utility function is "optimize for outcomes that are in accord with my state-secular religious beliefs at the expense of my child's life outcomes", it's not.

anon291 4y ago
One can say the same thing about public and private schooled kids -- sheltered from traditional and conservative ideas.
- xpe 4y ago
  This is a false claim of equivalence: very different things are happening. A liberal education does not 'shelter' students from religion -- instead, they are more likely to learn about it critically, perhaps in comparison with various faiths and histories. Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. Perhaps something about the organizational setup of religious-based and funded programs is counterproductive for skeptical minds who might otherwise be curious.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    I'm very confused about the meaning of 'liberal' in this thread - it's quite overloaded anyway, but is it also like 'conservative' in having quite a different (or at least more specific) meaning in the US vs. UK (and especially vs. capital-C 'Conservative' party)? But also it seems to be assumed contradictorily to imply each secular and not?
    - anon291 4y ago
      Yeah, he brought up religion for no particular reason. To be clear, when I say 'traditional' ideas, I mean those ideas that have captured the secular zeitgeist of generations before us. For example, the idea that the family is the foundational element of society today has religious connotations, but only because it is carried over from Roman times. The Romans achieved this conclusion through secular means. It's now associated with religion because the Catholic church basically is the current implementation of the late Roman empire's value system.
      - xpe 4y ago
        > Yeah, he brought up religion for no particular reason. You do not understand why it was mentioned. Then you claim you do. Then you write words that many would consider insulting. You can do better. Try.
        anon291 4y ago
        Sorry what's insulting about what I wrote?
        xpe 4y ago
        > Yeah, he brought up religion for no particular reason. Saying that someone brought something up "for no particular reason" is not respectful. Just because you don't understand the reason is not a valid justification for being dismissive.
        anon291 4y ago
        We were talking about liberals and conservatives. Conservatives are not universally religious and liberals are not universally irreligious. What is more disrespectful is attempting to change the subject to take the discussion in a direction that, if it were headed there to begin with, I would not have engaged.
        xpe 4y ago
        > What is more disrespectful is attempting to change the subject to take the discussion in a direction that, if it were headed there to begin with, I would not have engaged. I'm flabbergasted by your words. I don't know your life circumstances, your age, where you live, what you've been through, etc. I do wonder if you are having a particularly bad day or week or month. I don't mean this as an insult: if you need support, please seek it out. Perhaps (like many) you lack some important communication skills or emotional awareness. These can be learned.
        xpe 4y ago
    - xpe 4y ago
      > I'm very confused about the meaning of 'liberal' in this thread - it's quite overloaded anyway, but is it also like 'conservative' in having quite a different (or at least more specific) meaning in the US vs. UK (and especially vs. capital-C 'Conservative' party)? Speaking for myself, when I say 'liberalism' I usually mean (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) """Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, private property and a market economy."""
  - anon291 4y ago
    But that's my point... I went to a normal school. Even though it was religious, I wasn't exposed to any conservative ideas (religious != political conservatism). The school kinda went along with the general zeitgeist. Perhaps your experience is different. We did a cursory (and I mean extremely cursory) view of all world religions, as I think many schools may offer, but we never went in depth. But again, religion is not conservatism, whether political or even social (Stoicism is a 'conservative' philosophy, despite not being religious and perhaps even anti-religious). It wasn't until I was older that I began studying these topics in any great detail. > Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. That's not really germaine. Did you learn it in a public school? Because if not, I think my point stands.
    - xpe 4y ago
      >> Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. > That's not really germaine. Did you learn it in a public school? Because if not, I think my point stands. I took classes in history, philosophy, and ethics at a public university (one with considerable public funding). My public high school, on the other hand, had very limited capabilities or structure for teaching liberal arts well.
      - anon291 4y ago
        Universities are different. No one here is suggesting 'homeschooling' university (whatever that means)
  - wyager 4y ago
    > Perhaps something about the organizational setup of religious-based and funded programs American public schools are a religious-based and funded program; you just don't notice it because you don't even know what your own religion is.
    - jackson1442 4y ago
      Would you like to provide any evidence or supplementary information to support your claim?
      - anon291 4y ago
        The major purpose of establishing public schools was to fight the parochial system brought over by Irish and Italian immigrants. Perhaps that's what he's talking about?
      - wyager 4y ago
        No.
        xpe 4y ago
        Why stop now? We were interested.
    - xpe 4y ago
      > because you don't even know what your own religion is. Please explain. To whom are you referring with "your"? Me, whom you don't know? Someone in general?
      - wyager 4y ago
        I'm referring to you personally, but also a number of our mutual readers. I don't need to know you at a personal level to know what your religion is; it's clear from your comments.
        xpe 4y ago

by wyager 4y ago

anon291 4y ago

One can say the same thing about public and private schooled kids -- sheltered from traditional and conservative ideas.

xpe 4y ago
This is a false claim of equivalence: very different things are happening. A liberal education does not 'shelter' students from religion -- instead, they are more likely to learn about it critically, perhaps in comparison with various faiths and histories. Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. Perhaps something about the organizational setup of religious-based and funded programs is counterproductive for skeptical minds who might otherwise be curious.
- OJFord 4y ago
  I'm very confused about the meaning of 'liberal' in this thread - it's quite overloaded anyway, but is it also like 'conservative' in having quite a different (or at least more specific) meaning in the US vs. UK (and especially vs. capital-C 'Conservative' party)? But also it seems to be assumed contradictorily to imply each secular and not?
  - anon291 4y ago
    Yeah, he brought up religion for no particular reason. To be clear, when I say 'traditional' ideas, I mean those ideas that have captured the secular zeitgeist of generations before us. For example, the idea that the family is the foundational element of society today has religious connotations, but only because it is carried over from Roman times. The Romans achieved this conclusion through secular means. It's now associated with religion because the Catholic church basically is the current implementation of the late Roman empire's value system.
    - xpe 4y ago
      > Yeah, he brought up religion for no particular reason. You do not understand why it was mentioned. Then you claim you do. Then you write words that many would consider insulting. You can do better. Try.
      - anon291 4y ago
        Sorry what's insulting about what I wrote?
        xpe 4y ago
        > Yeah, he brought up religion for no particular reason. Saying that someone brought something up "for no particular reason" is not respectful. Just because you don't understand the reason is not a valid justification for being dismissive.
        anon291 4y ago
        We were talking about liberals and conservatives. Conservatives are not universally religious and liberals are not universally irreligious. What is more disrespectful is attempting to change the subject to take the discussion in a direction that, if it were headed there to begin with, I would not have engaged.
        xpe 4y ago
        > What is more disrespectful is attempting to change the subject to take the discussion in a direction that, if it were headed there to begin with, I would not have engaged. I'm flabbergasted by your words. I don't know your life circumstances, your age, where you live, what you've been through, etc. I do wonder if you are having a particularly bad day or week or month. I don't mean this as an insult: if you need support, please seek it out. Perhaps (like many) you lack some important communication skills or emotional awareness. These can be learned.
        xpe 4y ago
  - xpe 4y ago
    > I'm very confused about the meaning of 'liberal' in this thread - it's quite overloaded anyway, but is it also like 'conservative' in having quite a different (or at least more specific) meaning in the US vs. UK (and especially vs. capital-C 'Conservative' party)? Speaking for myself, when I say 'liberalism' I usually mean (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) """Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, private property and a market economy."""
- anon291 4y ago
  But that's my point... I went to a normal school. Even though it was religious, I wasn't exposed to any conservative ideas (religious != political conservatism). The school kinda went along with the general zeitgeist. Perhaps your experience is different. We did a cursory (and I mean extremely cursory) view of all world religions, as I think many schools may offer, but we never went in depth. But again, religion is not conservatism, whether political or even social (Stoicism is a 'conservative' philosophy, despite not being religious and perhaps even anti-religious). It wasn't until I was older that I began studying these topics in any great detail. > Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. That's not really germaine. Did you learn it in a public school? Because if not, I think my point stands.
  - xpe 4y ago
    >> Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. > That's not really germaine. Did you learn it in a public school? Because if not, I think my point stands. I took classes in history, philosophy, and ethics at a public university (one with considerable public funding). My public high school, on the other hand, had very limited capabilities or structure for teaching liberal arts well.
    - anon291 4y ago
      Universities are different. No one here is suggesting 'homeschooling' university (whatever that means)
- wyager 4y ago
  > Perhaps something about the organizational setup of religious-based and funded programs American public schools are a religious-based and funded program; you just don't notice it because you don't even know what your own religion is.
  - jackson1442 4y ago
    Would you like to provide any evidence or supplementary information to support your claim?
    - anon291 4y ago
      The major purpose of establishing public schools was to fight the parochial system brought over by Irish and Italian immigrants. Perhaps that's what he's talking about?
    - wyager 4y ago
      No.
      - xpe 4y ago
        Why stop now? We were interested.
  - xpe 4y ago
    > because you don't even know what your own religion is. Please explain. To whom are you referring with "your"? Me, whom you don't know? Someone in general?
    - wyager 4y ago
      I'm referring to you personally, but also a number of our mutual readers. I don't need to know you at a personal level to know what your religion is; it's clear from your comments.
      - xpe 4y ago