12 ms·

8:30 or later. Good. I say start it at 10. Let the kids sleep in and be happier for it.

by givemeethekeys 4y ago

smm11 4y ago
Yeah, because they won't just stay up later then.
- jwilber 4y ago
  Their parents will still likely wake them up when they go off to work.
  - smm11 4y ago
    I am VERY close to this situation, I'm married to a California teacher. Most of the kids hate this idea. 1. They know they and everyone else will just stay up later. 2. School will go on too late in the day, sports participation is dropping appreciably. 3. Those who work after school or school/sports are quitting sports to work, and planning ways to leave when they did previously to go to work. This is incredibly short-sighted, and will not last a year.
    - troupe 4y ago
      It feels like something that might better be decided at the local school district level.
      - alistairSH 4y ago
        The problem with that approach is the debate tends to be led by football parents who want to make sure there’s ample time for the kids to beat each other senseless on the field. Literally, that’s the argument we got in Fairfax County when similar proposals were floated.
        giantg2 4y ago
        This sounds like a vast over simplification and plain scapegoating. All the school start time surveys I've seen typically have an even split up to moderately favoring normal start times. Half the school is not on the football team.
        smm11 4y ago
        Good thing they'll graduate and have kind bosses who are okay with them rolling in at 10.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Education is more important than playing football. Working is more important than playing football (for those who need the money). Anecdotally, when I was in high school, with a 7:30 AM start, around 25% of the class was asleep through 1st period. And this was in honors/AP courses with the kids who wanted to learn, get good grades, and generally be successful.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        That doesn't match my experience at all. I started at 7:15 (special elective) and school started at 8. The only kids who would fall asleep were the kids that stayed up late playing videogames, abusing caffeine (and/or other drugs), and didn’t care about grades. So my anecdotes don't match your's.
      - SoftTalker 4y ago
        Football (and its school attendance and passing grade requirements) might be the thing keeping a kid in school and getting an education.
        alistairSH 4y ago
        Maybe. But, we’re not talking about eliminating sports. Or after-school employment. Only shortening the window to do both. And the Venn diagram of kids that “need” to play sports and need to work pales in comparison to the total student body, who all (in aggregate) benefit from more morning sleep.
    - jsmith45 4y ago
      I'm confused by this. My high school in a different state started at 8:30, ended at 3:30, and sports was everything to that school. Like one of my math teachers was primarily a teacher so they could be the basketball coach. Starting at 8:30 is really not much of a problem.
- givemeethekeys 4y ago
  Some of them may, but many more will wake up comfortably due to more sunshine flooding through the window.
  - april_22 4y ago
    Exactly. Sunshine is proven to supress melatonin production (no matter whether night owl or early bird). Melatonin is usually produced at night and encourages you to feel sleepy. So later waking up times are certainly helpful, even if the person goes to bed a bit later. https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/0006-3223(87)90169-7/pdf https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/0006-322... https://you.com/search?q=light+melatonin+production https://you.com/search?q=light+melatonin+production
httpz 4y ago
That won't work for young kids if the parents have to go to work by 9.
- baby 4y ago
  let's make people start work later!
  - dwighttk 4y ago
    Mandatory blue laws before 9am!
- MBlume 4y ago
  If a high schooler needs to be driven to school by their parent, there is a serious street safety/transit problem which should be solved.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    I think the bigger issue is unsupervised minors. Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school. I suppose this could be solved by pre-care, but that make this bill completely moot.
    - krasin 4y ago
      >Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school As an anecdote, 100% of my class was coming to the school and back without being supervised since age 8. This was in 90s and not in the US, but the gap of "mature enough to go to school" between my experience and the statement feels a bit high, somehow.
      - alistairSH 4y ago
        Yep. And it’s 100% normal for early prior year school aged kids in Japan to cross town on the subway on their own. The American obsession with helicoptering their kids all the way through their first job is super weird and unhealthy.
giantg2 4y ago
Ten sounds like a nightmare for working parents. Eight seems like a completely reasonable start time to me, yet this law prevents that. Schools should be able to decide for themselves based off of the parents and what works for those in the district.
- feet 4y ago
  That's because the law is based around what's been observed behaviorally/biologically. Not what's good for working parents Schools shouldn't be forcing developing humans into a schedule that impairs their ability to learn and function, no matter what they want to decide
  - koolba 4y ago
    If they do enough physical and mental labor during the day and turn off their smart phones at night, they’ll have no issue going to sleep early enough. On the other hand if you do nothing mentally stimulating or physically tiring all day long, then of course you won’t be able to sleep till late.
    - KMag 4y ago
      That's no joke. I did tree removal for a few weeks one Summer while waiting for my Summer camp counselling job to start. I slept a solid 10 hours every night and felt awesome every morning. "Guiltless sleep of the righteous" and all of that. If they could bottle that sleep in a pill without having to drag downed trees all day, it would be crazy addictive.
    - heretogetout 4y ago
      Have you read the relevant research on the subject?
    - crooked-v 4y ago
      Teenagers literally have different sleep rhythms than either children or adults, so in the average case staying up late is a symptom, not a cause.
collegeburner 4y ago
No young people need to get up early to build character. If you let them stay up late they will get into trouble and become lazy watching TV and playing video games or whatever or worse they will be out late drinking and smoking marijuana. High school especially should start at 7:00 AM.
logicalmonster 4y ago
As a former child, I truly understand that a lack of sleep is a problem in teens, but I think this solution is probably worse for everybody. 1) The flipside to starting much later is that kids will be exiting schools later. Want to participate in some after school activities or clubs that aren't physically in school? A HS kid wants to hold down a little part time job so she can save to buy that first car or afford that summer trip she wants? Any activities out of school become much more difficult to manage if the exiting time moves any later. And these extracurriculars are also a big part of many peoples' lives. 2) I think it's naive to think that kids will get much extra sleep regardless of the school starting time. Their need for socialization and leisure activities out of school doesn't suddenly vanish if school starts later: they just get shifted. If you tell kids that they can manage to wake up at 9 instead of 7 and still make it to school on time, they'll just tend to stay up about 2 hours later playing games, watching movies, or chatting with friends. The end result might be about the same amount of sleep. 3) Logistically, it's hard enough for most parents to see their kids for a few minutes and deal with getting their kids out of the door in the morning (or driving them to school) when their wakeup times roughly coincide and they can get a little breakfast together or have a few minutes to chat. Trying to arrange a much different school schedule for kids is going to present a lot more difficulties to working parents, particularly if the kid has some special needs, is a tad rebellious about going to school, or you have to drive them for some other reason. Just thinking out loud here, but I'd say that getting rid of the nightly busy work (homework) is a better way to fix teens schedules. They already spend enough time at school learning. Stop forcing them to waste an hour or two every night regurgitating mostly busy work and then feeling like crap and needing to stay up another few hours decompressing. Let them get their fill of fun and socialization after a long day. Without the burden of homework, most teens have enough extra time in the day to get a little extra rest and still have enough to unwind and feel like a human.
- dqpb 4y ago
  > The flipside to starting much later is that kids will be exiting schools later Or they could just give that time back. Maybe things have changed, but back when I was in school, almost every class was a waste of time.
radley 4y ago
10am would mean less time for instruction or after-school programs.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  Just make them before-school programs. There is no reason every student should be affected by after school programs which affect a subset of those students.

8:30 or later. Good. I say start it at 10. Let the kids sleep in and be happier for it.

smm11 4y ago

Yeah, because they won't just stay up later then.

jwilber 4y ago
Their parents will still likely wake them up when they go off to work.
- smm11 4y ago
  I am VERY close to this situation, I'm married to a California teacher. Most of the kids hate this idea. 1. They know they and everyone else will just stay up later. 2. School will go on too late in the day, sports participation is dropping appreciably. 3. Those who work after school or school/sports are quitting sports to work, and planning ways to leave when they did previously to go to work. This is incredibly short-sighted, and will not last a year.
  - troupe 4y ago
    It feels like something that might better be decided at the local school district level.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      The problem with that approach is the debate tends to be led by football parents who want to make sure there’s ample time for the kids to beat each other senseless on the field. Literally, that’s the argument we got in Fairfax County when similar proposals were floated.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        This sounds like a vast over simplification and plain scapegoating. All the school start time surveys I've seen typically have an even split up to moderately favoring normal start times. Half the school is not on the football team.
        smm11 4y ago
        Good thing they'll graduate and have kind bosses who are okay with them rolling in at 10.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Education is more important than playing football. Working is more important than playing football (for those who need the money). Anecdotally, when I was in high school, with a 7:30 AM start, around 25% of the class was asleep through 1st period. And this was in honors/AP courses with the kids who wanted to learn, get good grades, and generally be successful.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      That doesn't match my experience at all. I started at 7:15 (special elective) and school started at 8. The only kids who would fall asleep were the kids that stayed up late playing videogames, abusing caffeine (and/or other drugs), and didn’t care about grades. So my anecdotes don't match your's.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      Football (and its school attendance and passing grade requirements) might be the thing keeping a kid in school and getting an education.
      - alistairSH 4y ago
        Maybe. But, we’re not talking about eliminating sports. Or after-school employment. Only shortening the window to do both. And the Venn diagram of kids that “need” to play sports and need to work pales in comparison to the total student body, who all (in aggregate) benefit from more morning sleep.
  - jsmith45 4y ago
    I'm confused by this. My high school in a different state started at 8:30, ended at 3:30, and sports was everything to that school. Like one of my math teachers was primarily a teacher so they could be the basketball coach. Starting at 8:30 is really not much of a problem.
givemeethekeys 4y ago
Some of them may, but many more will wake up comfortably due to more sunshine flooding through the window.
- april_22 4y ago
  Exactly. Sunshine is proven to supress melatonin production (no matter whether night owl or early bird). Melatonin is usually produced at night and encourages you to feel sleepy. So later waking up times are certainly helpful, even if the person goes to bed a bit later. https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/0006-3223(87)90169-7/pdf https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/0006-322... https://you.com/search?q=light+melatonin+production https://you.com/search?q=light+melatonin+production

httpz 4y ago

That won't work for young kids if the parents have to go to work by 9.

baby 4y ago
let's make people start work later!
- dwighttk 4y ago
  Mandatory blue laws before 9am!
MBlume 4y ago
If a high schooler needs to be driven to school by their parent, there is a serious street safety/transit problem which should be solved.
- giantg2 4y ago
  I think the bigger issue is unsupervised minors. Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school. I suppose this could be solved by pre-care, but that make this bill completely moot.
  - krasin 4y ago
    >Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school As an anecdote, 100% of my class was coming to the school and back without being supervised since age 8. This was in 90s and not in the US, but the gap of "mature enough to go to school" between my experience and the statement feels a bit high, somehow.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Yep. And it’s 100% normal for early prior year school aged kids in Japan to cross town on the subway on their own. The American obsession with helicoptering their kids all the way through their first job is super weird and unhealthy.

giantg2 4y ago

Ten sounds like a nightmare for working parents. Eight seems like a completely reasonable start time to me, yet this law prevents that. Schools should be able to decide for themselves based off of the parents and what works for those in the district.

feet 4y ago
That's because the law is based around what's been observed behaviorally/biologically. Not what's good for working parents Schools shouldn't be forcing developing humans into a schedule that impairs their ability to learn and function, no matter what they want to decide
- koolba 4y ago
  If they do enough physical and mental labor during the day and turn off their smart phones at night, they’ll have no issue going to sleep early enough. On the other hand if you do nothing mentally stimulating or physically tiring all day long, then of course you won’t be able to sleep till late.
  - KMag 4y ago
    That's no joke. I did tree removal for a few weeks one Summer while waiting for my Summer camp counselling job to start. I slept a solid 10 hours every night and felt awesome every morning. "Guiltless sleep of the righteous" and all of that. If they could bottle that sleep in a pill without having to drag downed trees all day, it would be crazy addictive.
  - heretogetout 4y ago
    Have you read the relevant research on the subject?
  - crooked-v 4y ago
    Teenagers literally have different sleep rhythms than either children or adults, so in the average case staying up late is a symptom, not a cause.

collegeburner 4y ago

No young people need to get up early to build character. If you let them stay up late they will get into trouble and become lazy watching TV and playing video games or whatever or worse they will be out late drinking and smoking marijuana. High school especially should start at 7:00 AM.

logicalmonster 4y ago

As a former child, I truly understand that a lack of sleep is a problem in teens, but I think this solution is probably worse for everybody. 1) The flipside to starting much later is that kids will be exiting schools later. Want to participate in some after school activities or clubs that aren't physically in school? A HS kid wants to hold down a little part time job so she can save to buy that first car or afford that summer trip she wants? Any activities out of school become much more difficult to manage if the exiting time moves any later. And these extracurriculars are also a big part of many peoples' lives. 2) I think it's naive to think that kids will get much extra sleep regardless of the school starting time. Their need for socialization and leisure activities out of school doesn't suddenly vanish if school starts later: they just get shifted. If you tell kids that they can manage to wake up at 9 instead of 7 and still make it to school on time, they'll just tend to stay up about 2 hours later playing games, watching movies, or chatting with friends. The end result might be about the same amount of sleep. 3) Logistically, it's hard enough for most parents to see their kids for a few minutes and deal with getting their kids out of the door in the morning (or driving them to school) when their wakeup times roughly coincide and they can get a little breakfast together or have a few minutes to chat. Trying to arrange a much different school schedule for kids is going to present a lot more difficulties to working parents, particularly if the kid has some special needs, is a tad rebellious about going to school, or you have to drive them for some other reason. Just thinking out loud here, but I'd say that getting rid of the nightly busy work (homework) is a better way to fix teens schedules. They already spend enough time at school learning. Stop forcing them to waste an hour or two every night regurgitating mostly busy work and then feeling like crap and needing to stay up another few hours decompressing. Let them get their fill of fun and socialization after a long day. Without the burden of homework, most teens have enough extra time in the day to get a little extra rest and still have enough to unwind and feel like a human.

dqpb 4y ago
> The flipside to starting much later is that kids will be exiting schools later Or they could just give that time back. Maybe things have changed, but back when I was in school, almost every class was a waste of time.

radley 4y ago

10am would mean less time for instruction or after-school programs.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
Just make them before-school programs. There is no reason every student should be affected by after school programs which affect a subset of those students.