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Social needs. Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others, it is the most fundamental need we have and is so important for the future of our pl

Social needs. Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others, it is the most fundamental need we have and is so important for the future of our planet. If I were to homeschool, it isn't about the learning, that is easy, it is about providing an environment where children can learn to co-exist with others. That can still be done with homeschool, but it will need to be intentional with daily activities that involve being in relationship with others, in physical form.

poulsbohemian 4y ago
We probably agree more than we disagree, but I'll just add my own daughters as data points. When they stayed home during covid, the oldest (not a good student) did better academically with the lack of peer / social pressures. My youngest (an exceptional student) did better academically too, which has since allowed her to jump way ahead in her studies and finally be recognized by teachers as an academic prodigy, whereas before they saw her as a social misfit. So - I agree that it is good for kids to learn how to coexist with others, I also think there are lots of ways to accomplish that and that we might all give school credit for social outcomes that aren't a reality.
- wussboy 4y ago
  I think you're confused as to the point of school. We often believe the point of school is the academics, but I would argue it's the social. Studies indicate social skills are more important to future success than academics. A hurriedly-googled link: https://www.tcscholars.org/social-success/ https://www.tcscholars.org/social-success/ And I would also argue you need excellent social skills to reach your potential academically. So, yes, your kids did better academically when they were at home, and that's great. But that's not the point of school.
  - poulsbohemian 4y ago
    >I think you're confused as to the point of school Actually, I think we're both wrong. During the time in my local PTA what stood out to me was the amount of time and money we spent on providing basic social services to kids - think providing meals, clothes, filtering for home and family problems etc. I would argue that in modern America, public schools are there to provide day care for working parents and to provide a modicum of social services, with education being an overarching hope and dream.
    - ksplicer 4y ago
      I don't think it's just an American thing that schools aren't that useful. Studies such the one linked below indicate that school choice has little impact on educational outcomes. Education is important, but I don't think anyone is particularly better at providing it in classrooms. Private tutoring and small group studies show much more impact. You could argue that is evidence that homeschooling is better, but I think that would only apply if you have subject matter experts teaching topics. Personally I think parents should focus on sending kids to schools that don't overburden children with homework and instead provide many opportunities for extracurriculars. https://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/schoolchoicelottery.pdf https://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/schoolchoicel...
  - troupe 4y ago
    I would argue that it is a lot easier to give a kid who is doing well academically some social interaction much better than they will get at the average public school than to take a child who is doing poorly at the public school and make them successful academically. I would agree though that most school districts do not spend money with academics as the priority.
  - kanzure 4y ago
    > We often believe the point of school is the academics, but I would argue it's the social. Studies indicate social skills are more important to future success than academics. How much socialization do kids really get in school anyway? They get 5 minute hallway breaks (if they are lucky) between 7 to 9 periods of classes per day. Maybe the bus ride in/out for 20-30 minutes. Lunch or recess. So how much time is that, again? Maybe 2-3 hours/day?
    - secludedrelish 4y ago
      I'd say group projects and class group activities with a goal are far more important forms of socialization than free time socialization.
  - odessacubbage 4y ago
    i can hardly think of a worse place to learn social skills than a classroom. all an intelligent kid really learns in public school is how to be cynical, detached and to maximally cheat the system. oh and also how to sell drugs. public schools are great for learning that.
    - fn-mote 4y ago
      > oh and also how to sell drugs. public schools are great for learning that. total cheap shot. s/public // drugs follow money at private schools what do you think you see? more expensive drug habits.
  - jdasdf 4y ago
    >We often believe the point of school is the academics, but I would argue it's the social. It's neither. The point is propaganda and brainwashing, any other benefits are ancillary at best. It isn't a coincidence that widespread schooling came about in a time where propaganda, nationalism and centralization and expansion of state power were on a high note, and such trends have only expanded since with the help of the propaganda and brainwashing conducted in those schools.
david927 4y ago
Please remember that not everyone has the same experiences, socially, in school and that for some, homeschooling is the vastly better option in that regard.
- wussboy 4y ago
  I would disagree with this. Those who do best on their own (let's imagine the stereo-typical nerd) are those who most need the social training of school to succeed in life.
  - throwawayf37jg 4y ago
    Those are also the most likely to face abuse like bullying in a school environment.
  - progman32 4y ago
    Schooling only drove me further and further into hiding who I was, to great detriment. It was only upon leaving school that I got the "social training" I needed to succeed. > Those who do best on their own With respect, you said it yourself.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
As someone who was homeschooled for the majority of my childhood, I fully agree. I was able to somewhat overcome the resulting lack of social development in late high school (which wasn’t at home) and uni, but it wouldn’t be until some time between my mid 20s and early 30s that I felt like a mostly socially functional adult, and I still feel inadequacies in that department even now. Additionally, I don’t know that I’d ever feel qualified to act as a teacher in as wide of a range of subjects as a child needs education in.
- biomcgary 4y ago
  My wife and I were both homeschooled (I also attended private and public schools at various times). With homeschooling, we had a lot of positive social interactions (4-H, history club, co-operative classes with other families, neighborhood kids) and essentially no negative ones. My experience in public schools was quite negative (as well as being educationally weak). Our third son is autistic (probably my genetics) and does very well being homeschooled. Since he is nearly non-verbal, the likelihood that he would encounter abuse in a traditional setting that he could not report is quite high. Of course, having siblings contributes to socialization.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Yeah, I won’t deny that it can work well and produce well-rounded, socially capable adults, but it’s dependent on the parent(s) getting a lot right in doing it, which is anything but a given. Homeschooling isn’t a decision that should be taken lightly, and I think that parent(s) considering it should be honest with themselves in evaluating their ability to pull it off well.
    - biomcgary 4y ago
      Homeschooling does require a lot of commitment and consideration of your limitations as a parent. For example, I think there is value to cooperative homeschooling for some subjects (e.g., science, which requires equipment). Trying to "go it alone" for everything can be a bad idea. In addition, most states don't provide funding to school at home, so homeschooling parents also face an economic disadvantage.
ComradePhil 4y ago
They need to learn how to be in relation to people who know and care about them, not other random kids (some of whom will be abused at home and hence abusive at school) and the teachers, some of whom will be extremely incompetent, emotionally abusive, pedophiles or all of that. There's absolutely no way sending a kid to school is better for their social life in any way.
- bequanna 4y ago
  Bingo. It seems like people ignore the huge social risks that sending kinds to public entails and write it off as something children should “learn to deal with”. Do you know who your child is spending time with at school? I hope so, because they will likely have more influence over your child’s development than you. If your children aren’t going to a highly selective, highly supervised school, good luck. It’s a crapshoot. Maybe they befriend “good” kids…maybe not. For example, my nephew is 6 and was playing with a female classmate who (for whatever reason) is already using sexual language and her play is inappropriate. Should my young nephew just “learn to deal” with that?
- anon291 4y ago
  100% agree. I am in touch with exactly 1 (yes 1) friend from elementary / middle school. If I stretch, I can say that there are 3 that I would actually want to talk to beyond this guy. I am a silicon valley executive making mid six figures. They're ... not, and not because they didn't have the same opportunities. Because of terrible life choices that I could easily have made myself, but, by the grace of God, did not. Amongst my classmates there's premarital pregnancies, domestic violence, lots of unemployment, prison time, etc. The same is true of my brother and sister-in-law. She comes from an extremely poor family, but managed to make something of herself by going into accounting. Yet, her family is filled with pre-marital pregnancy, deadbeat men, and even some violence. This stuff also existed in her schools. She managed to escape by keeping her head down and avoiding trouble. Honestly, any of us could have ended up in this 'socialized' group, but didn't. That was because we resisted peer pressure. All of us were extremely awkward kids. You'd consider us poorly socialized. Yet, we've 'made it', and the popular kids didn't. Of course, then I think of my now-wife, who grew up in much more privilege than we did. Her parents were highly educated (post-graduate) and were extremely deliberate in her schooling, her peer group, etc. While not technically homeschooling, my mother in law carefully crafted my wife's friend group and even took her out of classes if she didn't like the kids or thought the teacher was bad. She didn't have to put up with half the crap my brother, myself, or my sister-in-law had to put up with. I'm choosing the latter method for our kids, even if that means homeschooling them and using the public schools as a backup. EDIT: since I've seen religion come up here. My mother-in-law was and is a staunch atheist. My parents and sister-in-laws family are devoutly religious. Not all homeschoolers are religious. While I am religious, that is not the reason we are considering home schooling our daughters
devwastaken 4y ago
This is unfortunately all too true. I have relatives that like to think they're exempt from society (witnesses) and pushed that onto their kids, those kids are almost 18 and cannot carry out basic conversations. They are socially about 12 or less. They will never be able to leave home nor persue their own interests. Home schooling works better when kids have at least had elementary schooling. High school I would argue is where things break down a lot, and for some students there isn't a social experience outside of constant bullying and stress over things that don't matter.
wyager 4y ago
Public school (at least as I experienced it) is the worst possible place to learn social skills, unless you're hoping to pick up social skills for living in prison. It's age-segregated, usually monitored by adults, extremely regimented, and often very hostile. There are a million different contexts where kids can learn better, more useful social skills, like at church events, youth athletics, with kids in the neighborhood, etc.
- anon291 4y ago
  Yeah I totally agree. The social skills I learned at my parochial school were none of the social needs I needed to succeed in silicon valley, for example. My parochial school was poor working class. I learned how to talk crassly, 'shoot the shit', be prematurely sexual, to accept fate, etc. I did not learn how to speak properly, be diplomatic, set goals for life, better myself. Those I learned in college when I went to school with much better off kids and realized that all these things were things I could deliberately aim for and accomplish. So, while attending school gave me a leg up in understanding the typical American 'everyman' (a skill which is severely lacking in silicon valley and in 'elite' circles in society), it did absolutely nothing to help me achieve becoming part of that elite. In many ways it hindered me. It taught me a worldview where everyone was coming to get me, to put me in my place, etc.
bko 4y ago
> providing an environment where children can learn to co-exist with others Do most schools do this effectively? Kids are pretty terrible to each other and abuse is pretty much the norm from my experience. Of course its not crippling for most kids, but I remember getting made fun of, and making fun of other kids and everything in between. School is also one of the only places in life where you're likely to experience violence. It's basically a daycare. I don't know if there's an alternative. Maybe play dates in small groups?
hgomersall 4y ago
This so much. I've met quite a few homeschooled children and almost without fail they lack some pretty fundamental social skills. Things like an apparent inability to interact with children of their own age, or behaving obnoxiously to others in ways that would be rapidly stamped out by peers.
- monk_e_boy 4y ago
  I work in educating young men and women, ages 16 up to around 60. Homeschooled kids almost never make a year in "normal" education. They fail to adjust to a small college, they are no longer the center of attention. They have to wait for others to catch up. They are not team players. It's really hard to watch.
  - amachefe 4y ago
    This is personal opinion and not backed by any study or research. In all the ones I have seen, they easily adapt and actually get involved in civil societies more
  - DennisP 4y ago
    The rest sounds bad but "they have to wait for others to catch up" sounds like a win for homeschooling.
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      Have you ever heard of the fable about the tortoise and the hare? Sometimes speed isn't the most important.
    - celtain 4y ago
      It's unsurprising that a teacher-student ratio around 1:1 could yield incredible academic results. If that so often comes at the cost of skills necessary to operate in the vast majority of real world environments though, it's kind of useless.
      - 4y ago
scifibestfi 4y ago
I went to public school and would argue it's a terrible place to be socialized. You are socialized by kids your age in an environment that's more akin to prison than the real world.
- JJMcJ 4y ago
  Public school socialization. Humiliated by teachers. Bullied by some people. Small circle of friends. Adults as the enemy. All the homeschooled kids I've met seem pleasant, polite, comfortable around other kids and around adults. Of course this is Northern California so elsewhere the story may be different. Oh, and homeschooling is forbidden in Germany, under a 1938 law. 1938. Get it? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, elbow in the ribs. Just to see who doesn't like homeschooling.
  - hnhg 4y ago
    If we're going with full anecdotes, all the homeschooled folks I've had to deal with have had major issues integrating with wider society. I felt a bit sorry for them, even if they weren't always the nicest or well-meaning people to actually be around. But by the time they're a bit older, I guess it's too late.
    - virissimo 4y ago
      How do you know whether people you've "had to deal with" were homeschooled or not? Might that method result in selection effects?
      - camjohnson26 4y ago
        I doubt anyone I work with or meet knows I was homeschooled unless I specifically tell them, and it’s a pretty touchy subject because of the stereotypes people like the parent commenter have. Sounds like textbook survivorship bias, since the only homeschoolers you notice are the ones who are maladjusted. I know many people who were homeschooled and the range of outcomes varies, just like it does for public or private schools.
tomohawk 4y ago
If you're concerned about this, you're not the only one, and the good news is that there are many solutions for this. It is quite common for home schooled kids to be part of co-ops and other groups, where they may take classes together or have other activities together. In addition, don't underestimate how important it is for children to socialize with trusted adults. Many children don't get adequate socialization even from their parents.
medion 4y ago
The social needs argument is always made by those who went to traditional schools. Always. It's a kind of 'mesearch' argument.
lern_too_spel 4y ago
Homeschooling itself is intentional. The only problem is when the intention is bad. It should be possible to regulate homeschooling properly to account for the bad apples.
- bitlax 4y ago
  Honestly, when they get their own house in order I'll start to care what these "regulators" think. https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/13-baltimore-city-high-schools-zero-students-proficient-in-math https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/13-baltimore...
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    Do you seriously think those same students would do better if they were homeschooled without supervision?
    - bitlax 4y ago
      I think just about everyone would do better at home than in a Baltimore high school.
usrn 4y ago
I mostly socialized at church, there are also homeschool co-ops.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  I'd credit going to public school as helping me escape the indoctrination of church
lambdaphagy 4y ago
Imagine that there were a government program that taught infants how to walk: the infants enter the program unable to walk, and a year later just about all of them can. Now imagine trying to kill that program, or even taking your own children out unilaterally: "But walking is so important! How could you be opposed to children learning how to walk?" Your reaction to that is my reaction to the idea that a state apparatus is necessary for children to learn how to make friends and play.
zozbot234 4y ago
> Social needs. Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others, it is the most fundamental need we have and is so important for the future of our planet. Funny how this argument always comes out wrt. voluntary homeschooling, and not about shelter-in-place policies impacting K-12 and college students...
- simonw 4y ago
  I heard this argument non-stop from the very start of shelter-in-place.
- pawelmurias 4y ago
  Old fat people are ruling the world. It's traditional for them to sacrifice the young.
rayiner 4y ago
The socialization of modern schooling is terrible and artificial. Children are age segregated and managed by a handful of adults. Which means they learn mainly from each other, instead of from older kids and adults. It’s the factory farm equivalent of raising children. Homeschooled kids, of course, can learn social skills because they exist in societies and communities. Our neighbor’s kids are homeschooled. They’re over at our house right now. They play with the neighborhood kids, go to church, and engage in other social activities in mixed-age groups of kids.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Homeschooling without a larger community of kids can isolate the kids. I was awkward and a bit of a troublemaker. Thankfully with a really big high school there were always options to make other friends.
musicale 4y ago
> Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others Isn't that what after-school recreation (both supervised and unsupervised) is for? I always thought that after school (not to mention summer vacation!) was much better than school for interacting with friends, because we weren't stuck in classrooms where we were usually prevented from talking to each other.
rootsudo 4y ago
Depends on what other kids / environment. I asked to be pulled out and be put in private school because I knew that the public school system I was in was harming me. Social dynamics can be stunted with bullying, being denied experiences or progression or just thought of as a misfit due to demographic reasons e.g. being different.
snarf21 4y ago
I think that is the issue. Even if the homeschooling is completely online, you are saying that the socialization is now an extra demand placed on parents. We already saw how poorly most handled even getting their kids online for a Zoom or Google hangout. Teaching is incredibly hard work and I think we under value it. I think parents don't want this extra load and most have trouble even helping kids with homework and assignments they had specific instruction on. In my experience (and ours are all different), school taught me a lot of lessons that had nothing to do with academics. There are good teachers and there are bad teachers (just like bosses). Sometimes you have to do work that is dumb or pointless just because that is the rule (just like work). I met kids richer than me and kids poorer than me. I met kids of other races and religions. You learn how to handle people calling you names and you learn heartbreak. Constant time together with friends you've had for years and shared lots of up/downs can't be quantified. I don't think you get the same exposure at a club that is likely socio-economically grouped and a couple of hours per week.
Godel_unicode 4y ago
I’m not convinced that school does this though, I’ve met tons of people with abysmal social skills who weren’t homeschooled.
indymike 4y ago
Father of five of which three are homeschooled here. School was oppressive and socialization was limited to minutes per day. Homeschoolers get together and the kids get a lot more time to socialize.
throwwouq 4y ago
As a person who was homeschooled until age 13, I couldn't agree with you more. This is what I tell friends thinking they'll take their kids out of school to give them a better education: they'll be socially unprepared in life. Even if their social needs are supplemented, other kids will ask: what school do you go to school? And not having an answer can cause great embarrassment (I know, I've felt it myself).
ornornor 4y ago
> Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others Can’t that be achieved with activities outside of school like a sports club, the scouts, or whatever else the kid is actually interested in?
t_mann 4y ago
Schools are a fairly recent invention, and at the onset they were meant for those children (from non-aristocratic families) who weren't getting home-schooled (and would otherwise in many cases have spent their days labouring among adults). Now the 'default' has shifted, from home to classroom schooling, for various reasons, but you seem to confuse this with some 'natural' state.

poulsbohemian 4y ago

We probably agree more than we disagree, but I'll just add my own daughters as data points. When they stayed home during covid, the oldest (not a good student) did better academically with the lack of peer / social pressures. My youngest (an exceptional student) did better academically too, which has since allowed her to jump way ahead in her studies and finally be recognized by teachers as an academic prodigy, whereas before they saw her as a social misfit. So - I agree that it is good for kids to learn how to coexist with others, I also think there are lots of ways to accomplish that and that we might all give school credit for social outcomes that aren't a reality.

wussboy 4y ago
I think you're confused as to the point of school. We often believe the point of school is the academics, but I would argue it's the social. Studies indicate social skills are more important to future success than academics. A hurriedly-googled link: https://www.tcscholars.org/social-success/ https://www.tcscholars.org/social-success/ And I would also argue you need excellent social skills to reach your potential academically. So, yes, your kids did better academically when they were at home, and that's great. But that's not the point of school.
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  >I think you're confused as to the point of school Actually, I think we're both wrong. During the time in my local PTA what stood out to me was the amount of time and money we spent on providing basic social services to kids - think providing meals, clothes, filtering for home and family problems etc. I would argue that in modern America, public schools are there to provide day care for working parents and to provide a modicum of social services, with education being an overarching hope and dream.
  - ksplicer 4y ago
    I don't think it's just an American thing that schools aren't that useful. Studies such the one linked below indicate that school choice has little impact on educational outcomes. Education is important, but I don't think anyone is particularly better at providing it in classrooms. Private tutoring and small group studies show much more impact. You could argue that is evidence that homeschooling is better, but I think that would only apply if you have subject matter experts teaching topics. Personally I think parents should focus on sending kids to schools that don't overburden children with homework and instead provide many opportunities for extracurriculars. https://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/schoolchoicelottery.pdf https://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/schoolchoicel...
- troupe 4y ago
  I would argue that it is a lot easier to give a kid who is doing well academically some social interaction much better than they will get at the average public school than to take a child who is doing poorly at the public school and make them successful academically. I would agree though that most school districts do not spend money with academics as the priority.
- kanzure 4y ago
  > We often believe the point of school is the academics, but I would argue it's the social. Studies indicate social skills are more important to future success than academics. How much socialization do kids really get in school anyway? They get 5 minute hallway breaks (if they are lucky) between 7 to 9 periods of classes per day. Maybe the bus ride in/out for 20-30 minutes. Lunch or recess. So how much time is that, again? Maybe 2-3 hours/day?
  - secludedrelish 4y ago
    I'd say group projects and class group activities with a goal are far more important forms of socialization than free time socialization.
- odessacubbage 4y ago
  i can hardly think of a worse place to learn social skills than a classroom. all an intelligent kid really learns in public school is how to be cynical, detached and to maximally cheat the system. oh and also how to sell drugs. public schools are great for learning that.
  - fn-mote 4y ago
    > oh and also how to sell drugs. public schools are great for learning that. total cheap shot. s/public // drugs follow money at private schools what do you think you see? more expensive drug habits.
- jdasdf 4y ago
  >We often believe the point of school is the academics, but I would argue it's the social. It's neither. The point is propaganda and brainwashing, any other benefits are ancillary at best. It isn't a coincidence that widespread schooling came about in a time where propaganda, nationalism and centralization and expansion of state power were on a high note, and such trends have only expanded since with the help of the propaganda and brainwashing conducted in those schools.

david927 4y ago

Please remember that not everyone has the same experiences, socially, in school and that for some, homeschooling is the vastly better option in that regard.

wussboy 4y ago
I would disagree with this. Those who do best on their own (let's imagine the stereo-typical nerd) are those who most need the social training of school to succeed in life.
- throwawayf37jg 4y ago
  Those are also the most likely to face abuse like bullying in a school environment.
- progman32 4y ago
  Schooling only drove me further and further into hiding who I was, to great detriment. It was only upon leaving school that I got the "social training" I needed to succeed. > Those who do best on their own With respect, you said it yourself.

kitsunesoba 4y ago

As someone who was homeschooled for the majority of my childhood, I fully agree. I was able to somewhat overcome the resulting lack of social development in late high school (which wasn’t at home) and uni, but it wouldn’t be until some time between my mid 20s and early 30s that I felt like a mostly socially functional adult, and I still feel inadequacies in that department even now. Additionally, I don’t know that I’d ever feel qualified to act as a teacher in as wide of a range of subjects as a child needs education in.

biomcgary 4y ago
My wife and I were both homeschooled (I also attended private and public schools at various times). With homeschooling, we had a lot of positive social interactions (4-H, history club, co-operative classes with other families, neighborhood kids) and essentially no negative ones. My experience in public schools was quite negative (as well as being educationally weak). Our third son is autistic (probably my genetics) and does very well being homeschooled. Since he is nearly non-verbal, the likelihood that he would encounter abuse in a traditional setting that he could not report is quite high. Of course, having siblings contributes to socialization.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Yeah, I won’t deny that it can work well and produce well-rounded, socially capable adults, but it’s dependent on the parent(s) getting a lot right in doing it, which is anything but a given. Homeschooling isn’t a decision that should be taken lightly, and I think that parent(s) considering it should be honest with themselves in evaluating their ability to pull it off well.
  - biomcgary 4y ago
    Homeschooling does require a lot of commitment and consideration of your limitations as a parent. For example, I think there is value to cooperative homeschooling for some subjects (e.g., science, which requires equipment). Trying to "go it alone" for everything can be a bad idea. In addition, most states don't provide funding to school at home, so homeschooling parents also face an economic disadvantage.

ComradePhil 4y ago

They need to learn how to be in relation to people who know and care about them, not other random kids (some of whom will be abused at home and hence abusive at school) and the teachers, some of whom will be extremely incompetent, emotionally abusive, pedophiles or all of that. There's absolutely no way sending a kid to school is better for their social life in any way.

bequanna 4y ago
Bingo. It seems like people ignore the huge social risks that sending kinds to public entails and write it off as something children should “learn to deal with”. Do you know who your child is spending time with at school? I hope so, because they will likely have more influence over your child’s development than you. If your children aren’t going to a highly selective, highly supervised school, good luck. It’s a crapshoot. Maybe they befriend “good” kids…maybe not. For example, my nephew is 6 and was playing with a female classmate who (for whatever reason) is already using sexual language and her play is inappropriate. Should my young nephew just “learn to deal” with that?
anon291 4y ago
100% agree. I am in touch with exactly 1 (yes 1) friend from elementary / middle school. If I stretch, I can say that there are 3 that I would actually want to talk to beyond this guy. I am a silicon valley executive making mid six figures. They're ... not, and not because they didn't have the same opportunities. Because of terrible life choices that I could easily have made myself, but, by the grace of God, did not. Amongst my classmates there's premarital pregnancies, domestic violence, lots of unemployment, prison time, etc. The same is true of my brother and sister-in-law. She comes from an extremely poor family, but managed to make something of herself by going into accounting. Yet, her family is filled with pre-marital pregnancy, deadbeat men, and even some violence. This stuff also existed in her schools. She managed to escape by keeping her head down and avoiding trouble. Honestly, any of us could have ended up in this 'socialized' group, but didn't. That was because we resisted peer pressure. All of us were extremely awkward kids. You'd consider us poorly socialized. Yet, we've 'made it', and the popular kids didn't. Of course, then I think of my now-wife, who grew up in much more privilege than we did. Her parents were highly educated (post-graduate) and were extremely deliberate in her schooling, her peer group, etc. While not technically homeschooling, my mother in law carefully crafted my wife's friend group and even took her out of classes if she didn't like the kids or thought the teacher was bad. She didn't have to put up with half the crap my brother, myself, or my sister-in-law had to put up with. I'm choosing the latter method for our kids, even if that means homeschooling them and using the public schools as a backup. EDIT: since I've seen religion come up here. My mother-in-law was and is a staunch atheist. My parents and sister-in-laws family are devoutly religious. Not all homeschoolers are religious. While I am religious, that is not the reason we are considering home schooling our daughters

devwastaken 4y ago

This is unfortunately all too true. I have relatives that like to think they're exempt from society (witnesses) and pushed that onto their kids, those kids are almost 18 and cannot carry out basic conversations. They are socially about 12 or less. They will never be able to leave home nor persue their own interests. Home schooling works better when kids have at least had elementary schooling. High school I would argue is where things break down a lot, and for some students there isn't a social experience outside of constant bullying and stress over things that don't matter.

wyager 4y ago

Public school (at least as I experienced it) is the worst possible place to learn social skills, unless you're hoping to pick up social skills for living in prison. It's age-segregated, usually monitored by adults, extremely regimented, and often very hostile. There are a million different contexts where kids can learn better, more useful social skills, like at church events, youth athletics, with kids in the neighborhood, etc.

anon291 4y ago
Yeah I totally agree. The social skills I learned at my parochial school were none of the social needs I needed to succeed in silicon valley, for example. My parochial school was poor working class. I learned how to talk crassly, 'shoot the shit', be prematurely sexual, to accept fate, etc. I did not learn how to speak properly, be diplomatic, set goals for life, better myself. Those I learned in college when I went to school with much better off kids and realized that all these things were things I could deliberately aim for and accomplish. So, while attending school gave me a leg up in understanding the typical American 'everyman' (a skill which is severely lacking in silicon valley and in 'elite' circles in society), it did absolutely nothing to help me achieve becoming part of that elite. In many ways it hindered me. It taught me a worldview where everyone was coming to get me, to put me in my place, etc.

bko 4y ago

> providing an environment where children can learn to co-exist with others Do most schools do this effectively? Kids are pretty terrible to each other and abuse is pretty much the norm from my experience. Of course its not crippling for most kids, but I remember getting made fun of, and making fun of other kids and everything in between. School is also one of the only places in life where you're likely to experience violence. It's basically a daycare. I don't know if there's an alternative. Maybe play dates in small groups?

hgomersall 4y ago

This so much. I've met quite a few homeschooled children and almost without fail they lack some pretty fundamental social skills. Things like an apparent inability to interact with children of their own age, or behaving obnoxiously to others in ways that would be rapidly stamped out by peers.

monk_e_boy 4y ago
I work in educating young men and women, ages 16 up to around 60. Homeschooled kids almost never make a year in "normal" education. They fail to adjust to a small college, they are no longer the center of attention. They have to wait for others to catch up. They are not team players. It's really hard to watch.
- amachefe 4y ago
  This is personal opinion and not backed by any study or research. In all the ones I have seen, they easily adapt and actually get involved in civil societies more
- DennisP 4y ago
  The rest sounds bad but "they have to wait for others to catch up" sounds like a win for homeschooling.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    Have you ever heard of the fable about the tortoise and the hare? Sometimes speed isn't the most important.
  - celtain 4y ago
    It's unsurprising that a teacher-student ratio around 1:1 could yield incredible academic results. If that so often comes at the cost of skills necessary to operate in the vast majority of real world environments though, it's kind of useless.
    - 4y ago

scifibestfi 4y ago

I went to public school and would argue it's a terrible place to be socialized. You are socialized by kids your age in an environment that's more akin to prison than the real world.

JJMcJ 4y ago
Public school socialization. Humiliated by teachers. Bullied by some people. Small circle of friends. Adults as the enemy. All the homeschooled kids I've met seem pleasant, polite, comfortable around other kids and around adults. Of course this is Northern California so elsewhere the story may be different. Oh, and homeschooling is forbidden in Germany, under a 1938 law. 1938. Get it? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, elbow in the ribs. Just to see who doesn't like homeschooling.
- hnhg 4y ago
  If we're going with full anecdotes, all the homeschooled folks I've had to deal with have had major issues integrating with wider society. I felt a bit sorry for them, even if they weren't always the nicest or well-meaning people to actually be around. But by the time they're a bit older, I guess it's too late.
  - virissimo 4y ago
    How do you know whether people you've "had to deal with" were homeschooled or not? Might that method result in selection effects?
    - camjohnson26 4y ago
      I doubt anyone I work with or meet knows I was homeschooled unless I specifically tell them, and it’s a pretty touchy subject because of the stereotypes people like the parent commenter have. Sounds like textbook survivorship bias, since the only homeschoolers you notice are the ones who are maladjusted. I know many people who were homeschooled and the range of outcomes varies, just like it does for public or private schools.

tomohawk 4y ago

If you're concerned about this, you're not the only one, and the good news is that there are many solutions for this. It is quite common for home schooled kids to be part of co-ops and other groups, where they may take classes together or have other activities together. In addition, don't underestimate how important it is for children to socialize with trusted adults. Many children don't get adequate socialization even from their parents.

medion 4y ago

The social needs argument is always made by those who went to traditional schools. Always. It's a kind of 'mesearch' argument.

lern_too_spel 4y ago

Homeschooling itself is intentional. The only problem is when the intention is bad. It should be possible to regulate homeschooling properly to account for the bad apples.

bitlax 4y ago
Honestly, when they get their own house in order I'll start to care what these "regulators" think. https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/13-baltimore-city-high-schools-zero-students-proficient-in-math https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/13-baltimore...
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  Do you seriously think those same students would do better if they were homeschooled without supervision?
  - bitlax 4y ago
    I think just about everyone would do better at home than in a Baltimore high school.

usrn 4y ago

I mostly socialized at church, there are also homeschool co-ops.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
I'd credit going to public school as helping me escape the indoctrination of church

lambdaphagy 4y ago

Imagine that there were a government program that taught infants how to walk: the infants enter the program unable to walk, and a year later just about all of them can. Now imagine trying to kill that program, or even taking your own children out unilaterally: "But walking is so important! How could you be opposed to children learning how to walk?" Your reaction to that is my reaction to the idea that a state apparatus is necessary for children to learn how to make friends and play.

zozbot234 4y ago

> Social needs. Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others, it is the most fundamental need we have and is so important for the future of our planet. Funny how this argument always comes out wrt. voluntary homeschooling, and not about shelter-in-place policies impacting K-12 and college students...

simonw 4y ago
I heard this argument non-stop from the very start of shelter-in-place.
pawelmurias 4y ago
Old fat people are ruling the world. It's traditional for them to sacrifice the young.

rayiner 4y ago

The socialization of modern schooling is terrible and artificial. Children are age segregated and managed by a handful of adults. Which means they learn mainly from each other, instead of from older kids and adults. It’s the factory farm equivalent of raising children. Homeschooled kids, of course, can learn social skills because they exist in societies and communities. Our neighbor’s kids are homeschooled. They’re over at our house right now. They play with the neighborhood kids, go to church, and engage in other social activities in mixed-age groups of kids.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Homeschooling without a larger community of kids can isolate the kids. I was awkward and a bit of a troublemaker. Thankfully with a really big high school there were always options to make other friends.

musicale 4y ago

> Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others Isn't that what after-school recreation (both supervised and unsupervised) is for? I always thought that after school (not to mention summer vacation!) was much better than school for interacting with friends, because we weren't stuck in classrooms where we were usually prevented from talking to each other.

rootsudo 4y ago

Depends on what other kids / environment. I asked to be pulled out and be put in private school because I knew that the public school system I was in was harming me. Social dynamics can be stunted with bullying, being denied experiences or progression or just thought of as a misfit due to demographic reasons e.g. being different.

snarf21 4y ago

I think that is the issue. Even if the homeschooling is completely online, you are saying that the socialization is now an extra demand placed on parents. We already saw how poorly most handled even getting their kids online for a Zoom or Google hangout. Teaching is incredibly hard work and I think we under value it. I think parents don't want this extra load and most have trouble even helping kids with homework and assignments they had specific instruction on. In my experience (and ours are all different), school taught me a lot of lessons that had nothing to do with academics. There are good teachers and there are bad teachers (just like bosses). Sometimes you have to do work that is dumb or pointless just because that is the rule (just like work). I met kids richer than me and kids poorer than me. I met kids of other races and religions. You learn how to handle people calling you names and you learn heartbreak. Constant time together with friends you've had for years and shared lots of up/downs can't be quantified. I don't think you get the same exposure at a club that is likely socio-economically grouped and a couple of hours per week.

Godel_unicode 4y ago

I’m not convinced that school does this though, I’ve met tons of people with abysmal social skills who weren’t homeschooled.

indymike 4y ago

Father of five of which three are homeschooled here. School was oppressive and socialization was limited to minutes per day. Homeschoolers get together and the kids get a lot more time to socialize.

throwwouq 4y ago

As a person who was homeschooled until age 13, I couldn't agree with you more. This is what I tell friends thinking they'll take their kids out of school to give them a better education: they'll be socially unprepared in life. Even if their social needs are supplemented, other kids will ask: what school do you go to school? And not having an answer can cause great embarrassment (I know, I've felt it myself).

ornornor 4y ago

> Children need to learn how to be in relationship with others Can’t that be achieved with activities outside of school like a sports club, the scouts, or whatever else the kid is actually interested in?

t_mann 4y ago

Schools are a fairly recent invention, and at the onset they were meant for those children (from non-aristocratic families) who weren't getting home-schooled (and would otherwise in many cases have spent their days labouring among adults). Now the 'default' has shifted, from home to classroom schooling, for various reasons, but you seem to confuse this with some 'natural' state.