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It was actually a case with X11 too... it took some time to converge on XFree86, or what became X.org eventually. Yes, it is annoying, I agree, but it will get

It was actually a case with X11 too... it took some time to converge on XFree86, or what became X.org eventually. Yes, it is annoying, I agree, but it will get better.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
I'm not sure it can get better to the same degree. With X, we ended up mostly with X.org dominating the space, and that meant that it became the de-facto standard way to do certain things - I honestly don't know how many of setxkbmap, xrandr, clipboard management, color management, etc. are X11 features vs X.org features, but either way they were all centralized and worked the same no matter what window manager or desktop environment you put on top of Xorg. With Wayland, there's nothing to ensure that they will converge; GNOME can pick a way to do keyboard layout and just stick with that forever, and wlroots can pick a way to do keyboard layout and just stick with that forever, and users will forever be stuck having to look up how each compositor does or doesn't support changing keyboard layout. (This is not an idle problem to me; I recently found a wayland compositor that I wanted to try, and discovered that in spite of using wlroots it didn't actually expose any way to configure keyboard layout. With a X11 window manager, I'd just run setxkbmap and be done, but with wayland it's literally impossible for me to solve without writing code.)
- vetinari 4y ago
  xrandr (and predecessors, like xf86vidmode, xf86dga, xf86miscsetsaver) , xrender, xvideo (& xvmc) were X.org-isms. If you tried to run against another Xserver, the app either had to handle the case without the extensions, or you didn't run it. setxkbmap is another interesting thing. There are about two people in the world that know, how it works. Additionally, the linux console used separate mechamism to set console keyboard and font. So it was a duplication of a kind. The nice thing about wayland compositors is, that they remove duplications; X.org (or was it XFree86?) originally included it's own dynamic linker / module loader, driver system and another functionality, that should not be a business of a display server. So I'm a bit more optimistic. It will became better to the same degree, but it won't be tomorrow. It wasn't quick for X11 either, it took literally decades. Not a consolation, I know.

It was actually a case with X11 too... it took some time to converge on XFree86, or what became X.org eventually. Yes, it is annoying, I agree, but it will get better.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

I'm not sure it can get better to the same degree. With X, we ended up mostly with X.org dominating the space, and that meant that it became the de-facto standard way to do certain things - I honestly don't know how many of setxkbmap, xrandr, clipboard management, color management, etc. are X11 features vs X.org features, but either way they were all centralized and worked the same no matter what window manager or desktop environment you put on top of Xorg. With Wayland, there's nothing to ensure that they will converge; GNOME can pick a way to do keyboard layout and just stick with that forever, and wlroots can pick a way to do keyboard layout and just stick with that forever, and users will forever be stuck having to look up how each compositor does or doesn't support changing keyboard layout. (This is not an idle problem to me; I recently found a wayland compositor that I wanted to try, and discovered that in spite of using wlroots it didn't actually expose any way to configure keyboard layout. With a X11 window manager, I'd just run setxkbmap and be done, but with wayland it's literally impossible for me to solve without writing code.)

vetinari 4y ago
xrandr (and predecessors, like xf86vidmode, xf86dga, xf86miscsetsaver) , xrender, xvideo (& xvmc) were X.org-isms. If you tried to run against another Xserver, the app either had to handle the case without the extensions, or you didn't run it. setxkbmap is another interesting thing. There are about two people in the world that know, how it works. Additionally, the linux console used separate mechamism to set console keyboard and font. So it was a duplication of a kind. The nice thing about wayland compositors is, that they remove duplications; X.org (or was it XFree86?) originally included it's own dynamic linker / module loader, driver system and another functionality, that should not be a business of a display server. So I'm a bit more optimistic. It will became better to the same degree, but it won't be tomorrow. It wasn't quick for X11 either, it took literally decades. Not a consolation, I know.