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Because environmentalists have a truly terrible track record. They keep advocating for things that won't really help the environment - or actively hurt it. As

by ars 4y ago

Because environmentalists have a truly terrible track record. They keep advocating for things that won't really help the environment - or actively hurt it. As long as those things pass some kind of "purity test". For example: Being against nuclear power. Plastic straw ban (the replacements are way worse for the environment). Banning natural gas in homes (using electricity for your stove, water heater and dryer has greater emissions). Plastic bags vs others types - study after study has shown this helps litter, but is worse in every other possible way. Recycling plastic rather than burning it. Burning it is better for the environment, but "sounds bad".

mrexroad 4y ago
I’m left scratching my head at most of your examples. Got any citations?
- ars 4y ago
  See my reply here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31949804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31949804 about burning plastic. Nuclear power should be obvious. Plastic straws take FAR FAR FAR less energy than metal ones - don't forget the hot water to wash the metal one. Paper straws are usually coated with stuff, the paper takes more energy that plastic, and the coating doesn't break down - so you don't even get the compost. So long as we are burning natural gas for energy, it's better to use it directly in your home, vs have someone else burn it, make electricity, then use that. Plastic bags are good for litter, but you would have to use reusable ones hundreds of times, and never wash them - ever, for them to be better. Not to mention people reuse around half of them for garbage bags, so if you ban them, people still need to buy them.
  - aesthesia 4y ago
    > So long as we are burning natural gas for energy, it's better to use it directly in your home, vs have someone else burn it, make electricity, then use that. Only if you're using resistive heating. Heat pumps run on natural-gas-produced electricity can be at least as efficient as direct natural gas combustion for heating, and they automatically transition to cleaner sources of energy as the grid does. > you would have to use reusable ones hundreds of times, and never wash them - ever, for them to be better I understand that this is the case for cotton bags, IIRC due to high water use in cotton production, but for other types of reusable bags the threshold is lower. > people reuse around half of them for garbage bags This estimate seems like it's significantly too high. I do most of my grocery shopping at places that don't provide free plastic bags, and yet I still end up with far more single-use plastic bags than I could ever use for garbage. I would guess that no more than 10% of single-use bags actually get reused for trash.
    - ars 4y ago
      Heat pumps work fine for home heat, but I specifically mentioned hot water and dryer. Heat pump do not work well for those applications - I considered buying them and checked into it. Your oven also uses resistive heat. Induction can work well, but is underpowered if you are cooking more than 3 or 4 things at once (especially if you also use the oven). You need around double the electric service most homes run to the range (there is no standardized plug for it). Induction is only a replacement for causal cooks, people who make full course large meals will not be happy with it.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        It sounds like(yet again) another US only problem. My induction hob here in UK is wired to run at 7.2kW and the last thing I would describe it as is "underpowered" - even with all rings turned on at max power, things will burn instantly. It's a vast vast improvement over a gas range, wouldn't be without it. >>but I specifically mentioned hot water and dryer. I've never in my life have seen a dryer that runs on gas. Is this a thing? >> Heat pump do not work well for those applications What's wrong with heat pump dryers? They are awesome, as long as you aren't putting them in an unheated space like a garage. They use much less energy than condenser dryers and considerably less than vented ones, while being pretty quick.
        quickthrowman 4y ago
        Yes, natural gas dryers are semi-common in homes that have natural gas service where I live (Minnesota) due to the fact that it costs about half as much to operate a gas-fired dryer vs an electric one. Nearly everyone has gas furnaces here in MN since it’s significantly cheaper to heat with natural gas in the US, and it gets very cold here.
        ars 4y ago
        Ranges in the US can be wired for 50A * 240v * 80% = 9.6kW, and no, that's not enough. Cheaper homes have 30A for the range which is I guess what you have. > like(yet again) another US only problem I don't think Europeans realize how they sound when they say stuff like that. Especially when your stove would be considered low end in the US. A good stove is around 5 kW, and each burner is 2.5kW = 15kW to run everything at once - basically double the service you have. Unless you want to wire the range and stove separately (which might be an option). > I've never in my life have seen a dryer that runs on gas. Is this a thing? Obviously it's a thing, otherwise why would I say it? Is this a European thing not to have them? Gas dryers cost a bit more to buy (15% more maybe), but much much less to operate (half to be exact). If you have gas service in your home and you buy your own appliances you'll almost always pick that. > What's wrong with heat pump dryers? They are very expensive, and save about half the electricity - but gas dryers also save about half the energy, so there's no point in going for the heat pump. Even if you have no gas service, they cost around double a non heat pump, and it would take 10 years to recoup the money. It's not worth it - all you are doing is generating emissions in the dryer factory instead of your house. Environmentally the gas dryer is better, at least as long as we still burn gas to generate electricity. And don't forget the heat pump dryer takes much longer to dry clothing - at least for my house the dryer is always the bottleneck for laundry, I would never buy one that takes longer!
  - seoaeu 4y ago
    Arguing for natural gas heating is dumb. The only way to hit net-zero is electrification AND renewable electricity generation. Both will take decades. The only question is whether to do them sequentially or in parallel, and it is pretty obvious which will get us to net zero faster. Emitting a bit more carbon now is worth it if we can significantly reduce emissions long term
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
You are wrong on the facts about all of these, which is impressive in its own way, but just to focus in on one: Burning plastic isn’t better for the environment than recycling. It is better than landfill, assuming you're using the heat to displace fossil fuels though. You can check out the waste hierarchy on wikipedia if you care about being well informed about stuff: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_hierarchy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_hierarchy
- ars 4y ago
  No, I am not wrong. That's what's sad about this. People actually believe in all these things, not realizing they don't help the environment. And once people do find out how badly they have been mislead they tend to have a backlash and turn completely against anything an environmentalists suggests. Go read a study on the energy and water costs of recycling plastic. But I'll give you a quick summary: Plastic has two energy components. The energy embodied in it because it's flammable, and the energy to manufacture it. It takes more energy to recycle plastic, than it does to manufacture it. So why do people want to recycle it? Because they want to recover the energy embodied in it! But if you burn it, you get that energy back, AND you got to use the plastic for some productive purpose. And since recycling it takes more energy than manufacturing it new, burning plastic is always better than recycling it.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Here's a meta review of Life Cycle Analysis that says otherwise. Different countries, different methodologies, different assumptions but recycling being better than burning which is in turn better than landfill across a range of environmental impacts is fairly consistent. https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/10/5340/pdf https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/10/5340/pdf > Overall, this review found that for all the studies which aiming to compare waste treatment technologies, mechanical recycling comes out as the environmentally preferable option in most cases Hopefully this: > And once people do find out how badly they have been mislead they tend to have a backlash and turn completely against anything an environmentalists suggests. also applies to you finding out that you've been lied to by people who have a vested interest in generating exactly that backlash against environmentalist.

by ars 4y ago

mrexroad 4y ago

I’m left scratching my head at most of your examples. Got any citations?

ars 4y ago
See my reply here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31949804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31949804 about burning plastic. Nuclear power should be obvious. Plastic straws take FAR FAR FAR less energy than metal ones - don't forget the hot water to wash the metal one. Paper straws are usually coated with stuff, the paper takes more energy that plastic, and the coating doesn't break down - so you don't even get the compost. So long as we are burning natural gas for energy, it's better to use it directly in your home, vs have someone else burn it, make electricity, then use that. Plastic bags are good for litter, but you would have to use reusable ones hundreds of times, and never wash them - ever, for them to be better. Not to mention people reuse around half of them for garbage bags, so if you ban them, people still need to buy them.
- aesthesia 4y ago
  > So long as we are burning natural gas for energy, it's better to use it directly in your home, vs have someone else burn it, make electricity, then use that. Only if you're using resistive heating. Heat pumps run on natural-gas-produced electricity can be at least as efficient as direct natural gas combustion for heating, and they automatically transition to cleaner sources of energy as the grid does. > you would have to use reusable ones hundreds of times, and never wash them - ever, for them to be better I understand that this is the case for cotton bags, IIRC due to high water use in cotton production, but for other types of reusable bags the threshold is lower. > people reuse around half of them for garbage bags This estimate seems like it's significantly too high. I do most of my grocery shopping at places that don't provide free plastic bags, and yet I still end up with far more single-use plastic bags than I could ever use for garbage. I would guess that no more than 10% of single-use bags actually get reused for trash.
  - ars 4y ago
    Heat pumps work fine for home heat, but I specifically mentioned hot water and dryer. Heat pump do not work well for those applications - I considered buying them and checked into it. Your oven also uses resistive heat. Induction can work well, but is underpowered if you are cooking more than 3 or 4 things at once (especially if you also use the oven). You need around double the electric service most homes run to the range (there is no standardized plug for it). Induction is only a replacement for causal cooks, people who make full course large meals will not be happy with it.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      It sounds like(yet again) another US only problem. My induction hob here in UK is wired to run at 7.2kW and the last thing I would describe it as is "underpowered" - even with all rings turned on at max power, things will burn instantly. It's a vast vast improvement over a gas range, wouldn't be without it. >>but I specifically mentioned hot water and dryer. I've never in my life have seen a dryer that runs on gas. Is this a thing? >> Heat pump do not work well for those applications What's wrong with heat pump dryers? They are awesome, as long as you aren't putting them in an unheated space like a garage. They use much less energy than condenser dryers and considerably less than vented ones, while being pretty quick.
      - quickthrowman 4y ago
        Yes, natural gas dryers are semi-common in homes that have natural gas service where I live (Minnesota) due to the fact that it costs about half as much to operate a gas-fired dryer vs an electric one. Nearly everyone has gas furnaces here in MN since it’s significantly cheaper to heat with natural gas in the US, and it gets very cold here.
      - ars 4y ago
        Ranges in the US can be wired for 50A * 240v * 80% = 9.6kW, and no, that's not enough. Cheaper homes have 30A for the range which is I guess what you have. > like(yet again) another US only problem I don't think Europeans realize how they sound when they say stuff like that. Especially when your stove would be considered low end in the US. A good stove is around 5 kW, and each burner is 2.5kW = 15kW to run everything at once - basically double the service you have. Unless you want to wire the range and stove separately (which might be an option). > I've never in my life have seen a dryer that runs on gas. Is this a thing? Obviously it's a thing, otherwise why would I say it? Is this a European thing not to have them? Gas dryers cost a bit more to buy (15% more maybe), but much much less to operate (half to be exact). If you have gas service in your home and you buy your own appliances you'll almost always pick that. > What's wrong with heat pump dryers? They are very expensive, and save about half the electricity - but gas dryers also save about half the energy, so there's no point in going for the heat pump. Even if you have no gas service, they cost around double a non heat pump, and it would take 10 years to recoup the money. It's not worth it - all you are doing is generating emissions in the dryer factory instead of your house. Environmentally the gas dryer is better, at least as long as we still burn gas to generate electricity. And don't forget the heat pump dryer takes much longer to dry clothing - at least for my house the dryer is always the bottleneck for laundry, I would never buy one that takes longer!
- seoaeu 4y ago
  Arguing for natural gas heating is dumb. The only way to hit net-zero is electrification AND renewable electricity generation. Both will take decades. The only question is whether to do them sequentially or in parallel, and it is pretty obvious which will get us to net zero faster. Emitting a bit more carbon now is worth it if we can significantly reduce emissions long term

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

You are wrong on the facts about all of these, which is impressive in its own way, but just to focus in on one: Burning plastic isn’t better for the environment than recycling. It is better than landfill, assuming you're using the heat to displace fossil fuels though. You can check out the waste hierarchy on wikipedia if you care about being well informed about stuff: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_hierarchy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_hierarchy

ars 4y ago
No, I am not wrong. That's what's sad about this. People actually believe in all these things, not realizing they don't help the environment. And once people do find out how badly they have been mislead they tend to have a backlash and turn completely against anything an environmentalists suggests. Go read a study on the energy and water costs of recycling plastic. But I'll give you a quick summary: Plastic has two energy components. The energy embodied in it because it's flammable, and the energy to manufacture it. It takes more energy to recycle plastic, than it does to manufacture it. So why do people want to recycle it? Because they want to recover the energy embodied in it! But if you burn it, you get that energy back, AND you got to use the plastic for some productive purpose. And since recycling it takes more energy than manufacturing it new, burning plastic is always better than recycling it.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Here's a meta review of Life Cycle Analysis that says otherwise. Different countries, different methodologies, different assumptions but recycling being better than burning which is in turn better than landfill across a range of environmental impacts is fairly consistent. https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/10/5340/pdf https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/10/5340/pdf > Overall, this review found that for all the studies which aiming to compare waste treatment technologies, mechanical recycling comes out as the environmentally preferable option in most cases Hopefully this: > And once people do find out how badly they have been mislead they tend to have a backlash and turn completely against anything an environmentalists suggests. also applies to you finding out that you've been lied to by people who have a vested interest in generating exactly that backlash against environmentalist.