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So, your argument is "The art is terrible and he must have known it was terrible and possibly made it terrible intentionally for some sort of complex culture-wa

So, your argument is "The art is terrible and he must have known it was terrible and possibly made it terrible intentionally for some sort of complex culture-war publicity reason because the only other possibility is that he's actually offended by people telling him he's a terrible person and and idiot and a moron and only capable of producing absolute garbage because no person today would be offended by that because I guess it happens a lot because internet"? Honestly, I'm trying to say something about this argument that falls within the site's guidelines for discussion and I can't really figure out a way to.

adamrezich 4y ago
the first four words of your attempted paraphrase of my post, or anything like them, do not exist in my post in any form. while reading my post you hallucinated that I was "one of them" and disapproved of the game's art style. to clarify: I don't have any strong opinions about the art style of Return to Monkey Island, and while I have some thoughts about it, that entire line of discussion is uninteresting to me. I see no reason for the art style to have been chosen other than that those involved in making the game think it's a good fit for the game they're making. and it probably is! so please, if you're going to continue to engage with me on this topic, update your mental model of me and the position I'm taking on this, because you seem to have made some faulty assumptions, unsubstantiated by what I've posted here. however, it should be obvious to anyone that the art style is both a departure from the original games, and their later sequels, and that it's such a stylistic departure that backlash should be fully expected. if Ron Gilbert really, truly did not expect backlash on the reveal of the art style, then either he is ridiculously naïve compared to how I would expect him to be, given his career and previous works... or the reveal and subsequent response, in which we all meant to feel warm and fuzzy and sympathetic to a legendary game designer who had anonymous fuckwads write mean things about him and his game on the Internet, was expected, and planned as part of making a broader audience care about a point-and-click adventure game being released in 2022, at a time where great lengths must be taken to get anyone to care about any game you make at all, as there's way too many options for not just games to play but places to give one's attention in general. what do you think the net effects of this entire saga are going to be? do you think more people know and/or care about the release of this upcoming game, a game which is of a genre that is broadly (back) in decline (after a brief resurgence a decade or so ago), as a result of this debacle? and almost more importantly: what was it about my post that made you think I disliked the art style of Return to Monkey Island? because it wasn't the words that said as much, because those words don't exist—yet something made you think I think the art style is bad! it might be useful to analyze what led you to this incorrect assumption.
- bena 4y ago
  So what I did is look up all the Monkey Island games. There are essentially 7. The Secret of, LeChuck's Revenge, The Curse of, Escape from, Tales of, and Special Editions of The Secret of and LeChuck's Revenge. And I went look up screenshots of every game. Consistency does not exist. The Secret of and LeChuck's Revenge are pretty similar, The Curse of looks very Dragon's Lair-esque/Don Bluthy, Escape from looks kind of ass to be honest. It's very "early 3D" and did not age well. Tales of is also 3D and is ok-ish. The remakes are also 3D, but also different from both Escape and Tales of. And the character design of Guywood changes from the first two, to the third, to the fourth to the sidestory, to the Special Editions. So any argument based on "consistency" is a red herring for something else. Consistency has not been a hallmark of this series, graphics-wise. This series has more departures than LAX.
  - adamrezich 4y ago
    I agree with everything you've written here 100%, and this is why I actually think the art style they've chosen for this new game is interesting in a tentatively good way, despite me having basically zero grounds upon which to judge art in general. they eschewed the sort of overwrought cartoon whimsy of the later games and Special Editions, and found an art style that allows much of the same level of expression you'd get from pixel art, while not being pixel art, if that makes sense. it's certainly a bold choice, but it kind of had to be, right? this is why I never said anything about "consistency" and why I am empathetic to the plight of having to figure out how a Monkey Island game in 2022 should look, because as you discovered it somewhat surprisingly (for someone unfamiliar with the series) doesn't "draw itself" like one would expect for a revival of a retro franchise. all of this reasoning is exactly why I don't understand why Internet backlash to the art style reveal was so allegedly unforeseen—it was a real "damned if you make it look like any of the old games, damned if you make it look completely different"-type situation.
    - bena 4y ago
      I can't recall any real backlash about any of the other games though. That's the issue. Just about every game looks different, but not until this one do people "care". It literally has no real basis to base its look off of. > however, it should be obvious to anyone that the art style is both a departure from the original games, and their later sequels, and that it's such a stylistic departure that backlash should be fully expected. This here seems to be you talking about consistency. Saying that it doesn't match the older games. Well, which older game should it match? If anything, it not matching any of the older games would be more stylistically appropriate than matching any of the older games.

adamrezich 4y ago

the first four words of your attempted paraphrase of my post, or anything like them, do not exist in my post in any form. while reading my post you hallucinated that I was "one of them" and disapproved of the game's art style. to clarify: I don't have any strong opinions about the art style of Return to Monkey Island, and while I have some thoughts about it, that entire line of discussion is uninteresting to me. I see no reason for the art style to have been chosen other than that those involved in making the game think it's a good fit for the game they're making. and it probably is! so please, if you're going to continue to engage with me on this topic, update your mental model of me and the position I'm taking on this, because you seem to have made some faulty assumptions, unsubstantiated by what I've posted here. however, it should be obvious to anyone that the art style is both a departure from the original games, and their later sequels, and that it's such a stylistic departure that backlash should be fully expected. if Ron Gilbert really, truly did not expect backlash on the reveal of the art style, then either he is ridiculously naïve compared to how I would expect him to be, given his career and previous works... or the reveal and subsequent response, in which we all meant to feel warm and fuzzy and sympathetic to a legendary game designer who had anonymous fuckwads write mean things about him and his game on the Internet, was expected, and planned as part of making a broader audience care about a point-and-click adventure game being released in 2022, at a time where great lengths must be taken to get anyone to care about any game you make at all, as there's way too many options for not just games to play but places to give one's attention in general. what do you think the net effects of this entire saga are going to be? do you think more people know and/or care about the release of this upcoming game, a game which is of a genre that is broadly (back) in decline (after a brief resurgence a decade or so ago), as a result of this debacle? and almost more importantly: what was it about my post that made you think I disliked the art style of Return to Monkey Island? because it wasn't the words that said as much, because those words don't exist—yet something made you think I think the art style is bad! it might be useful to analyze what led you to this incorrect assumption.

bena 4y ago
So what I did is look up all the Monkey Island games. There are essentially 7. The Secret of, LeChuck's Revenge, The Curse of, Escape from, Tales of, and Special Editions of The Secret of and LeChuck's Revenge. And I went look up screenshots of every game. Consistency does not exist. The Secret of and LeChuck's Revenge are pretty similar, The Curse of looks very Dragon's Lair-esque/Don Bluthy, Escape from looks kind of ass to be honest. It's very "early 3D" and did not age well. Tales of is also 3D and is ok-ish. The remakes are also 3D, but also different from both Escape and Tales of. And the character design of Guywood changes from the first two, to the third, to the fourth to the sidestory, to the Special Editions. So any argument based on "consistency" is a red herring for something else. Consistency has not been a hallmark of this series, graphics-wise. This series has more departures than LAX.
- adamrezich 4y ago
  I agree with everything you've written here 100%, and this is why I actually think the art style they've chosen for this new game is interesting in a tentatively good way, despite me having basically zero grounds upon which to judge art in general. they eschewed the sort of overwrought cartoon whimsy of the later games and Special Editions, and found an art style that allows much of the same level of expression you'd get from pixel art, while not being pixel art, if that makes sense. it's certainly a bold choice, but it kind of had to be, right? this is why I never said anything about "consistency" and why I am empathetic to the plight of having to figure out how a Monkey Island game in 2022 should look, because as you discovered it somewhat surprisingly (for someone unfamiliar with the series) doesn't "draw itself" like one would expect for a revival of a retro franchise. all of this reasoning is exactly why I don't understand why Internet backlash to the art style reveal was so allegedly unforeseen—it was a real "damned if you make it look like any of the old games, damned if you make it look completely different"-type situation.
  - bena 4y ago
    I can't recall any real backlash about any of the other games though. That's the issue. Just about every game looks different, but not until this one do people "care". It literally has no real basis to base its look off of. > however, it should be obvious to anyone that the art style is both a departure from the original games, and their later sequels, and that it's such a stylistic departure that backlash should be fully expected. This here seems to be you talking about consistency. Saying that it doesn't match the older games. Well, which older game should it match? If anything, it not matching any of the older games would be more stylistically appropriate than matching any of the older games.