4 ms·

Because life insurance companies make profits by: a) overcharging you for covering the risk of you dying too early (death insurance is marketed as 'life' insur

by rundmc 4y ago

Because life insurance companies make profits by: a) overcharging you for covering the risk of you dying too early (death insurance is marketed as 'life' insurance) b) overcharging you for covering the risk of you living so long that you run out of money (fixed annuities). Disclosure: I am the founder of https://tontine.com https://tontine.com which will shortly launch a lifetime income solution that will reward you for living longer and we are hiring.

jaclaz 4y ago
Only as a reference on the history of tontines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine
- papandada 4y ago
  Well put, Oxford!
  - rundmc 4y ago
    Context: https://youtu.be/4AqKjjhET2k https://youtu.be/4AqKjjhET2k
jfengel 4y ago
I will say I'm impressed that you secured the domain name. That word was precisely what came to mind upon reading this question. A tontine is precisely insurance against living too long.
- rundmc 4y ago
  I still can't believe the price they quoted us for it. Sometimes it makes no sense to haggle.
WFHRenaissance 4y ago
How long before you start killing customers because they're living too long?
- irq-1 4y ago
  As opposed to killing customers because their treatments cost too much? (Which happens everyday by denying coverage, unlike the fictional plot device of Tontine as a motive for murder.)
  - WFHRenaissance 4y ago
    As if multinational pharmaceutical companies don't kill their problematic customers eye roll
- rundmc 4y ago
  Unlike insurance companies, we don't benefit from customers passing away. If customers are living longer, our algo's slows down the capital payouts which means that we earn fees on more assets for longer. Therefore it makes commercial sense for us to give customers tips to help them live longer. For example, I just found this today: https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/51/5/afac080/6572254?login=false https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/51/5/afac080/6572254...
polishdude20 4y ago
What sort of guarantee is there that this company will be around to pay this insurance our by the time I'm most likely to die? I'm 29, say I've got another 50 years left. Is there some insurance or assurance you can give in the event of the death of the company? A sort of meta-tontine?
- rundmc 4y ago
  Firstly, ~125 years ago, there was a crash in the insurance industry. The insurers which offered tontines survived, all of the others disappeared. Secondly, the trust is managed by a board of trustees that have a fiduciary duty to look after the best interests of members rather than the best interest of shareholders. When the next crash of 2008 scale or worse occurs, would you prefer to be a general creditor of an insurer (which has a debt to equity ratio of ~12:1) or would you prefer to be a beneficiary of trust with no debt which manages assets like the Harvard or Yale endowments whilst being legally obliged to look after your best interest?
  - polishdude20 4y ago
    Hmm that sounds not bad actually! How does it work say if I die before starting to take a monthly sum? Say I want to retire at 65 but I die at 40. I wouldn't get anything in that case. So the first hurdle to overcome is to actually reach retirement age? I guess pensions work the same way, we pay into a pension and if I die before retirement, goodbye pension. How are monthly amounts calculated? Is it, the more I put in the more I can get out monthly when I retire? Do I get paid more monthly as I get older because we're assuming more people in my "pool" have passed away? If I stop contributing after some time before I retire, do I still get a pension?
dragonwriter 4y ago
> death insurance is marketed as 'life' insurance Looking at other insurance, naming after the thing insured (auto insurance, life insurance, motorcycle insurance) is pretty common, as is naming after the class of people who might want it (homeowner’s insurance, renter’s insurance) and the source/cause/type of loss insured against (flood insurance, malpractice insurance). I don't think any of those is more fundamentally “correct”, and they are all marketing tools.
obiefernandez 4y ago
Regarding hiring: Is your software written in Ruby on Rails?
- rundmc 4y ago
  Haskell
  - JoelMcCracken 4y ago
    What is your overall stack like? Haskell dev here, always curious about commercial use.

by rundmc 4y ago

jaclaz 4y ago

Only as a reference on the history of tontines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine

papandada 4y ago
Well put, Oxford!
- rundmc 4y ago
  Context: https://youtu.be/4AqKjjhET2k https://youtu.be/4AqKjjhET2k

jfengel 4y ago

I will say I'm impressed that you secured the domain name. That word was precisely what came to mind upon reading this question. A tontine is precisely insurance against living too long.

rundmc 4y ago
I still can't believe the price they quoted us for it. Sometimes it makes no sense to haggle.

WFHRenaissance 4y ago

How long before you start killing customers because they're living too long?

irq-1 4y ago
As opposed to killing customers because their treatments cost too much? (Which happens everyday by denying coverage, unlike the fictional plot device of Tontine as a motive for murder.)
- WFHRenaissance 4y ago
  As if multinational pharmaceutical companies don't kill their problematic customers eye roll
rundmc 4y ago
Unlike insurance companies, we don't benefit from customers passing away. If customers are living longer, our algo's slows down the capital payouts which means that we earn fees on more assets for longer. Therefore it makes commercial sense for us to give customers tips to help them live longer. For example, I just found this today: https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/51/5/afac080/6572254?login=false https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/51/5/afac080/6572254...

polishdude20 4y ago

What sort of guarantee is there that this company will be around to pay this insurance our by the time I'm most likely to die? I'm 29, say I've got another 50 years left. Is there some insurance or assurance you can give in the event of the death of the company? A sort of meta-tontine?

rundmc 4y ago
Firstly, ~125 years ago, there was a crash in the insurance industry. The insurers which offered tontines survived, all of the others disappeared. Secondly, the trust is managed by a board of trustees that have a fiduciary duty to look after the best interests of members rather than the best interest of shareholders. When the next crash of 2008 scale or worse occurs, would you prefer to be a general creditor of an insurer (which has a debt to equity ratio of ~12:1) or would you prefer to be a beneficiary of trust with no debt which manages assets like the Harvard or Yale endowments whilst being legally obliged to look after your best interest?
- polishdude20 4y ago
  Hmm that sounds not bad actually! How does it work say if I die before starting to take a monthly sum? Say I want to retire at 65 but I die at 40. I wouldn't get anything in that case. So the first hurdle to overcome is to actually reach retirement age? I guess pensions work the same way, we pay into a pension and if I die before retirement, goodbye pension. How are monthly amounts calculated? Is it, the more I put in the more I can get out monthly when I retire? Do I get paid more monthly as I get older because we're assuming more people in my "pool" have passed away? If I stop contributing after some time before I retire, do I still get a pension?

dragonwriter 4y ago

> death insurance is marketed as 'life' insurance Looking at other insurance, naming after the thing insured (auto insurance, life insurance, motorcycle insurance) is pretty common, as is naming after the class of people who might want it (homeowner’s insurance, renter’s insurance) and the source/cause/type of loss insured against (flood insurance, malpractice insurance). I don't think any of those is more fundamentally “correct”, and they are all marketing tools.

obiefernandez 4y ago

Regarding hiring: Is your software written in Ruby on Rails?

rundmc 4y ago
Haskell
- JoelMcCracken 4y ago
  What is your overall stack like? Haskell dev here, always curious about commercial use.