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As desirable as the specs are, this comment on Canon Rumors balances things up: "To those fawning after the Red...sure, it looks nice, but the poor color rende

As desirable as the specs are, this comment on Canon Rumors balances things up: "To those fawning after the Red...sure, it looks nice, but the poor color rendering, impossible proprietary workflow, and constantly-in-need-of-updates software make the camera a nightmare, imo, to use. Canon's footage has nicer skin tones than I've ever seen out of a Red. There's a reason so much tv is shot with the Alexa, rather than the red, and why dSLRs are used on ads--1080p with nice and standardized colors out of camera is much better for post. Red is cool, but what you get in terms of extra tech you pay for in having to figure out how to use it efficiently. Canon's cine camera does seem overpriced for what you get, though--in that no man's land the AF100 and F3 already inhabit except even more expensive..." From http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2059.msg41081.html#msg41081 http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2059.msg410... In other news, all these $10k-$20k cameras, zooms from $45k and primes for $7k make still photography look really cheap.

protomyth 15y ago
I think Canon Rumors is a little disingenuous (much like MacRumors). The workflow isn't that bad, and the skin tones look good with HDRx. Canon has some fun with formats, not giving a true RAW for video. Neither camera has the true killer feature for a lot of productions: on camera ProRes recording like the Alexa. If Canon had come out with a camera with a good RAW format and on camera ProRes, then I would say Canon is the clear winner. As is, I think Red is a better value.
- davidjohnstone 15y ago
  I should clarify that the comment was by a forum member, not Canon Rumors themselves. How much does a $10k price difference matter when you live in a world where lenses can cost >$40k?
  - protomyth 15y ago
    Not much, but both cameras can use the cheaper Canon lenses, and these cameras aren't the ones you are putting $40k lenses on unless you are renting. If you are buying the $40k lense you are buying an Epic, Alexa, or high end Sony. $15k for a complete Red rig is pretty good and can be used to do some serious work.
    - rorrr 15y ago
      Most canon lenses can only be used in manual focus mode, the motors make way too much noise. That's why good cinematic lenses are so expensive.
      - tincholio 15y ago
        Well, that's the way they would be used with this rig, as it doesn't support AF.
        protomyth 15y ago
        According to the announcement, Scarlet does support autofocus on the Canon mount: "Price for Scarlet-X, including Brain, Side SSD and Canon aluminum mount (auto-focus support) is $9,750" http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65760-SCARLET-ANNOUNCEMENT..../page2 http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65760-SCARLET-AN...
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
- mashmac2 15y ago
  Of course, when we're talking cost, you'll most likely have the Scarlet on a support system, so it's an easy matter to add a Ki Pro Mini on the back, attach with HD-SDI, and record ProRes 422 (at 1080p) onto CF cards at a wide variety of bitrates. Extra cost ($3k). Compared to $50k+ for Alexa, it's still a great price/deal.
Aqua_Geek 15y ago
> impossible proprietary workflow Speaking from experience, the workflow isn't hard at all. Do you have to know what you're doing? Sure. But the same could be said for just about anything. > [...] and why dSLRs are used on ads--1080p [...] out of camera is much better for post Agreed. If your final delivery format is 1080p, it's a lot easier not to have to mess with transcoding.
bgentry 15y ago
impossible proprietary workflow I know this wasn't your comment, but what exactly is impossible and proprietary about their workflow? AFAIK Redcode RAW is supported by Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premiere, Avid, etc..
- unwind 15y ago
  Reading up a bit on REDCODE (simply by hitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE) the fact that the audio is uncompressed amused me. With the bandwidth spent on the video content, I guess 4 channels of 24-bit PCM at 48 kHz just doesn't matter. :)
- jermy 15y ago
  The REDCODE format is proprietary - any of the above need to have the Red quicktime or AMA plugin to access the content. For amusement, see 'Baselight Kompressor' for what a linux-based grading system has to do to handle red content.
  - jamesfmilne 15y ago
    You don't need to use a Kompressor (Mac Pro) to decode RED on a Baselight. Baselight supports RED natively on Linux (including RED Rocket support). Kompressor is only there for handling codecs for which there is no (official) Linux implementation (ie ProRes), or connecting to storage systems that don't have native Linux drivers (like Avid Unity). Disclaimer: I'm one of the Baselight developers.
    - jermy 15y ago
      Ah, apologies, I'll eat my hat (or buy you a beer sometime - you folks Covent Garden based?). I had assumed Kompressor also handled REDCODE with its hardware requirements, as well the Avid Connection Manager and other Quicktime codecs.
      - jamesfmilne 15y ago
        Hey Jermy, no worries ;-) We're in Soho, so within spitting distance. Beer sounds good!
stephen_g 15y ago
From someone who has processed and edited a lot of RED footage, this is pretty much complete hogwash. RED cameras use a RAW codec called REDCODE, which records the raw sensor data with lossless compression. Almost every other camera records RGB data that has been through gamma correction, a colour curve, sharpening (ugh..), and a whole lot of other image processing. These other cameras therefore give you very little flexibility in post production for grading and so on. This gives the illusion that RED cameras have worse colour rendering - because it is not doing much image processing in camera, the un-processed image looks very flat - and it requires some skill to actually expose the image when you're shooting it, and properly process it in post production (this is a professional camera, remember). The amount of crap you see because of errors on set and in processing... But footage from somebody who knows how to shoot it properly is easily on par with the Alexa (which produces lovely skin tones but is very low resolution) and miles better than DSLR cameras with their aliasing and moire that comes from the line skipping and pixel binning that they need to do to get a decent frame rate out of a still camera sensor - not to mention the 8 bit low bitrate RGB codecs they use which are hopelessly lacking as an acquisition format. And the workflow is sooo hard - I mean, it's such a battle to get RED footage into Premiere for example (File -> Import -> OK). And only pretty much every single grading package, every single non-linear editor and compositing package supports RED footage...
- davidjohnstone 15y ago
  I'm pleased to be corrected by somebody who knows what they're talking about :-)
- jermy 15y ago
  As only a minor nitpick (my excuse is that this is my day job), you've got it the wrong way round - REDCODE is actually storing data as RGB, whereas 'every other camera' is almost certainly using a MPEG-based codec and storing it as YUV with chroma subsampling - somewhere between 4:1:1/4:2:0 to 4:2:2 depending on the camera in use. As with any lossless compression, it's a compromise between having almost all of the data shot to work with versus pretty much having to always do a full grade on any content you get and the additional online storage space needed in post-production.

protomyth 15y ago

I think Canon Rumors is a little disingenuous (much like MacRumors). The workflow isn't that bad, and the skin tones look good with HDRx. Canon has some fun with formats, not giving a true RAW for video. Neither camera has the true killer feature for a lot of productions: on camera ProRes recording like the Alexa. If Canon had come out with a camera with a good RAW format and on camera ProRes, then I would say Canon is the clear winner. As is, I think Red is a better value.

davidjohnstone 15y ago
I should clarify that the comment was by a forum member, not Canon Rumors themselves. How much does a $10k price difference matter when you live in a world where lenses can cost >$40k?
- protomyth 15y ago
  Not much, but both cameras can use the cheaper Canon lenses, and these cameras aren't the ones you are putting $40k lenses on unless you are renting. If you are buying the $40k lense you are buying an Epic, Alexa, or high end Sony. $15k for a complete Red rig is pretty good and can be used to do some serious work.
  - rorrr 15y ago
    Most canon lenses can only be used in manual focus mode, the motors make way too much noise. That's why good cinematic lenses are so expensive.
    - tincholio 15y ago
      Well, that's the way they would be used with this rig, as it doesn't support AF.
      - protomyth 15y ago
        According to the announcement, Scarlet does support autofocus on the Canon mount: "Price for Scarlet-X, including Brain, Side SSD and Canon aluminum mount (auto-focus support) is $9,750" http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65760-SCARLET-ANNOUNCEMENT..../page2 http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65760-SCARLET-AN...
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
mashmac2 15y ago
Of course, when we're talking cost, you'll most likely have the Scarlet on a support system, so it's an easy matter to add a Ki Pro Mini on the back, attach with HD-SDI, and record ProRes 422 (at 1080p) onto CF cards at a wide variety of bitrates. Extra cost ($3k). Compared to $50k+ for Alexa, it's still a great price/deal.

Aqua_Geek 15y ago

> impossible proprietary workflow Speaking from experience, the workflow isn't hard at all. Do you have to know what you're doing? Sure. But the same could be said for just about anything. > [...] and why dSLRs are used on ads--1080p [...] out of camera is much better for post Agreed. If your final delivery format is 1080p, it's a lot easier not to have to mess with transcoding.

bgentry 15y ago

impossible proprietary workflow I know this wasn't your comment, but what exactly is impossible and proprietary about their workflow? AFAIK Redcode RAW is supported by Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premiere, Avid, etc..

unwind 15y ago
Reading up a bit on REDCODE (simply by hitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE) the fact that the audio is uncompressed amused me. With the bandwidth spent on the video content, I guess 4 channels of 24-bit PCM at 48 kHz just doesn't matter. :)
jermy 15y ago
The REDCODE format is proprietary - any of the above need to have the Red quicktime or AMA plugin to access the content. For amusement, see 'Baselight Kompressor' for what a linux-based grading system has to do to handle red content.
- jamesfmilne 15y ago
  You don't need to use a Kompressor (Mac Pro) to decode RED on a Baselight. Baselight supports RED natively on Linux (including RED Rocket support). Kompressor is only there for handling codecs for which there is no (official) Linux implementation (ie ProRes), or connecting to storage systems that don't have native Linux drivers (like Avid Unity). Disclaimer: I'm one of the Baselight developers.
  - jermy 15y ago
    Ah, apologies, I'll eat my hat (or buy you a beer sometime - you folks Covent Garden based?). I had assumed Kompressor also handled REDCODE with its hardware requirements, as well the Avid Connection Manager and other Quicktime codecs.
    - jamesfmilne 15y ago
      Hey Jermy, no worries ;-) We're in Soho, so within spitting distance. Beer sounds good!

stephen_g 15y ago

From someone who has processed and edited a lot of RED footage, this is pretty much complete hogwash. RED cameras use a RAW codec called REDCODE, which records the raw sensor data with lossless compression. Almost every other camera records RGB data that has been through gamma correction, a colour curve, sharpening (ugh..), and a whole lot of other image processing. These other cameras therefore give you very little flexibility in post production for grading and so on. This gives the illusion that RED cameras have worse colour rendering - because it is not doing much image processing in camera, the un-processed image looks very flat - and it requires some skill to actually expose the image when you're shooting it, and properly process it in post production (this is a professional camera, remember). The amount of crap you see because of errors on set and in processing... But footage from somebody who knows how to shoot it properly is easily on par with the Alexa (which produces lovely skin tones but is very low resolution) and miles better than DSLR cameras with their aliasing and moire that comes from the line skipping and pixel binning that they need to do to get a decent frame rate out of a still camera sensor - not to mention the 8 bit low bitrate RGB codecs they use which are hopelessly lacking as an acquisition format. And the workflow is sooo hard - I mean, it's such a battle to get RED footage into Premiere for example (File -> Import -> OK). And only pretty much every single grading package, every single non-linear editor and compositing package supports RED footage...

davidjohnstone 15y ago
I'm pleased to be corrected by somebody who knows what they're talking about :-)
jermy 15y ago
As only a minor nitpick (my excuse is that this is my day job), you've got it the wrong way round - REDCODE is actually storing data as RGB, whereas 'every other camera' is almost certainly using a MPEG-based codec and storing it as YUV with chroma subsampling - somewhere between 4:1:1/4:2:0 to 4:2:2 depending on the camera in use. As with any lossless compression, it's a compromise between having almost all of the data shot to work with versus pretty much having to always do a full grade on any content you get and the additional online storage space needed in post-production.