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> I'm sorry for ranting, I really wish the best for V and its maintainers. I appreciate you posting this. I like the premise of V and really want for it to suc

> I'm sorry for ranting, I really wish the best for V and its maintainers. I appreciate you posting this. I like the premise of V and really want for it to suceed, but this is a good summary of why I think so many people dislike V: the lead dev and community do not engage criticism in good faith. I'm sure V receives its fair share of unwarranted criticism, but a lot of legitimate criticism and questions are either met with a) hostility or b) incredulity, which causes people to dislike the language for fundamental reasons. Both the creator and community members gaslight (for lack of a better word) and act as if they're happy to receive questions or feedback, but even in this thread you can see people being treated like I mentioned above. E.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947510, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947121, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947014, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947977

amedvednikov 4y ago
How's the first link an attack for asking simple questions? (By the way there's not a single question there.)
- richbell 4y ago
  Initially my intention was to link questions, but I decided to link to any genuine comments that reflect the GP's sentiment. I've updated the language in my comment.
johnfn 4y ago
I don't have the time to go through every link, but let's just look at one or two: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947177 I mean, the article linked at the top is just outrageous - just read through it. For instance, it claims that V misleads by claiming that it has no null. But really what the author has done is found a bug in V that allows a variable to be set to null. A bug that unintentionally leads to creation of null is wildly different than V not supporting non-nullability at all. It'd be like using FFI in Rust to set a non-nullable variable to null and claiming that meant Rust had no type safety. It's absurd. I can understand the maintainer's frustration. > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 OP claims V has "huge promises it hasn't kept". V is version 0.3. This seems wildly unfair. > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 OP kicks a conversation in poor faith with "Wanna know something funnier also posted in previous thread?" about a V bug - which HN turns a blind eye to - and then suddenly the HN community pounces on the V maintainer when he gets frustrated in return? What?
- richbell 4y ago
  > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 > OP claims V has "huge promises it hasn't kept". V is version 0.3. This seems wildly unfair. Keep in mind that V didn't start out as a v0.1 with an ambitious roadmap, it popped up as website with a bunch of exciting features that made it seem further along than it actually was (https://web.archive.org/web/20190315194630/https://vlang.io/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190315194630/https://vlang.io/ and https://web.archive.org/web/20190315173156/https://volt-app.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190315173156/https://volt-app....). I suspect that's what OP is referring to. Incidentally, this is also what prompted articles like "V is for Vaporware". >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 > OP kicks a conversation in poor faith with "Wanna know something funnier also posted in previous thread?" about a V bug - which HN turns a blind eye to - and then suddenly the HN community pounces on the V maintainer when he gets frustrated in return? What? I specifically linked to the_duke's comment offering some good-faith feedback. --- But I digress. My intention isn't to argue that V is bad, just to provide context to why it's such a divisive topic.
  - johnfn 4y ago
    > I specifically linked to the_duke's comment offering some good-faith feedback. My point with this thread is it follows a common pattern. A HN user will post something in bad faith. The maintainer will respond with annoyance. Then someone like the_duke will moralize about how the maintainer shouldn't be so antagonistic. Then GP will put it in a list and say "the lead dev and community do not engage criticism in good faith." What is going on here?
    - _gabe_ 4y ago
      > The maintainer will respond with annoyance. The maintainer is the face of the product in certain ways. We would never defend a corporate CEO responding in annoyance to their free/paid users because it's unprofessional and puts the brand in a negative spotlight. In the same way, if you're leading/promoting a project you are held to a higher standard. You can choose to ignore bad faith comments, or respond in a positive way to bring the discussion to a higher level of civility. Yes, it's annoying to have people give bad faith criticisms. But if you want a product to succeed and you want to foster a positive community, you should always elevate the level of civil discourse. So I disagree with your sentiment that other users are moralizing here. If I'm going to engage with a product, it gives me much higher confidence knowing that the maintainers conduct themselves in a professional manner, even when a user is unprofessional.

amedvednikov 4y ago

How's the first link an attack for asking simple questions? (By the way there's not a single question there.)

richbell 4y ago
Initially my intention was to link questions, but I decided to link to any genuine comments that reflect the GP's sentiment. I've updated the language in my comment.

johnfn 4y ago

I don't have the time to go through every link, but let's just look at one or two: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947177 I mean, the article linked at the top is just outrageous - just read through it. For instance, it claims that V misleads by claiming that it has no null. But really what the author has done is found a bug in V that allows a variable to be set to null. A bug that unintentionally leads to creation of null is wildly different than V not supporting non-nullability at all. It'd be like using FFI in Rust to set a non-nullable variable to null and claiming that meant Rust had no type safety. It's absurd. I can understand the maintainer's frustration. > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 OP claims V has "huge promises it hasn't kept". V is version 0.3. This seems wildly unfair. > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 OP kicks a conversation in poor faith with "Wanna know something funnier also posted in previous thread?" about a V bug - which HN turns a blind eye to - and then suddenly the HN community pounces on the V maintainer when he gets frustrated in return? What?

richbell 4y ago
> > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31947212 > OP claims V has "huge promises it hasn't kept". V is version 0.3. This seems wildly unfair. Keep in mind that V didn't start out as a v0.1 with an ambitious roadmap, it popped up as website with a bunch of exciting features that made it seem further along than it actually was (https://web.archive.org/web/20190315194630/https://vlang.io/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190315194630/https://vlang.io/ and https://web.archive.org/web/20190315173156/https://volt-app.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190315173156/https://volt-app....). I suspect that's what OP is referring to. Incidentally, this is also what prompted articles like "V is for Vaporware". >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946715 > OP kicks a conversation in poor faith with "Wanna know something funnier also posted in previous thread?" about a V bug - which HN turns a blind eye to - and then suddenly the HN community pounces on the V maintainer when he gets frustrated in return? What? I specifically linked to the_duke's comment offering some good-faith feedback. --- But I digress. My intention isn't to argue that V is bad, just to provide context to why it's such a divisive topic.
- johnfn 4y ago
  > I specifically linked to the_duke's comment offering some good-faith feedback. My point with this thread is it follows a common pattern. A HN user will post something in bad faith. The maintainer will respond with annoyance. Then someone like the_duke will moralize about how the maintainer shouldn't be so antagonistic. Then GP will put it in a list and say "the lead dev and community do not engage criticism in good faith." What is going on here?
  - _gabe_ 4y ago
    > The maintainer will respond with annoyance. The maintainer is the face of the product in certain ways. We would never defend a corporate CEO responding in annoyance to their free/paid users because it's unprofessional and puts the brand in a negative spotlight. In the same way, if you're leading/promoting a project you are held to a higher standard. You can choose to ignore bad faith comments, or respond in a positive way to bring the discussion to a higher level of civility. Yes, it's annoying to have people give bad faith criticisms. But if you want a product to succeed and you want to foster a positive community, you should always elevate the level of civil discourse. So I disagree with your sentiment that other users are moralizing here. If I'm going to engage with a product, it gives me much higher confidence knowing that the maintainers conduct themselves in a professional manner, even when a user is unprofessional.