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CEO: "Don't worry we are not planning any layoffs!" me: "Phew, OK realtor let's close on this new house purchase! It's a big investment but my future looks gr

CEO: "Don't worry we are not planning any layoffs!" me: "Phew, OK realtor let's close on this new house purchase! It's a big investment but my future looks great!" <two weeks later> CEO: "I'm sorry but I was wrong and you are terminated effective immediately." Bank: "Congrats on your house purchase closing, your new monthly payment of $XXXX is due in two weeks!" How is THAT a better situation than warning people there could be instability ahead? People are being thrown completely under the bus with no warning.

Frost1x 4y ago
It's a matter of perspective. We have a culture that largely puts business interests above independent peoples interests. If you agree with this then it makes complete sense that it's better for the company because that employee might have been kept and we want to keep them stable. If we warn them, they might become a flight risk and we might not need to cut them. Information asymmetry is our friend so let's give them only the information that's beneficial to us. If on the other hand you take the perspective of supporting a bottom up independent worker interests above a business's (I fall in this category), then your point is quite valid. Information asymmetry here put me in a terrible situation, if you would have told me earlier, I might have made different decisions. That might not include leaving, but it might have included tidying up my resume and prepping for interviews, just-in-case. Maybe I follow through or maybe I just keep some backups lined up in case things go south. Some may just pass the risk back to the business and jump ship since they assume they have better odds doing this and may even get a promotion. Personally I don't believe any business leadership's words, I skim financials, I watch movements in the laborforce especially around management, I look at markets and make my own interpretation. I assume they're providing intentional incomplete information to their advantage and try to infer reality from that combined with the other data sources. Businesses are not your friends and will lie to you to their advantage above all else. I'm not a subscriber to Hanlon's razor when it comes to self-interest. What can typically be attributed to self-interest should be considered above incompetence, especially when looking at something as strategic and methodical as a modern business structure that have countless meetings to sit around and discuss and analyze these sorts of things or contract specialized skilled services in these domains.
- Nimitz14 4y ago
  > It's a matter of perspective. We have a culture that largely puts business interests above independent peoples interests. No. It's about the fact that it's literally the CEO's job to put the business's interests above those of any individual employee. Anything else wouldn't make sense.
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    Good luck with that attitude when your company depends on highly skilled labor that comes from a very small pool of talent (relative to all labor in the country). The game industry, and game engine programmers in general, are a small group and if a company isn't good to their employees they are going to have a very, very difficult time hiring and staying competitive. It's not like they can just grab bodies and throw them at projects. Even hiring the very best and brightest cloud engineers from a FAANG is going to see them flounder and waste time ramping up to game engine development.
    - philipov 4y ago
      Unless, as the game industry tends to be, every employer is awful, and you can get away with it because there is a lack of better offers for people to consider.
    - Nimitz14 4y ago
      If one didn't have the attitude I mentioned the company will go under from employees leaving. You missed the point.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Why aren't you always keeping your resume tidy and staying ready to interview? In April 2020, when Covid hit, my company did an across the board paycut. The next week a recruiter reached out to me about a job that I really was T interested in. But we kept talking and she referred me to a job I was. I gave her my resume without any changes to it from before the pay cut announcement. I spoke to the (internal) recruiter about my accomplishments based on a “career document” that was updated. I did no special technical preparation for my interview loop (BigTech cloud consulting - app dev). I only practiced behavioral questions based on my career document.
nazka 4y ago
> It comes just weeks after Riccitiello told explicitly employees in an all-hands meeting that layoffs weren’t coming. I wonder about the legality of doing all this...
- sidlls 4y ago
  Even if it did run afoul of labor regulations, it's damn near trivial for a business to find a justification ("new information", "changing market conditions", etc.) for a change of plans.
eulers_secret 4y ago
It is well-known that if you're in the USA you can lose your job at any time, for no reason at all. At-will and all. People need to plan for that happening, and not just assume it can't happen to them. This example employee should have thought "Hmmm, I should wait some years and save a good amount extra just in case". I wish it weren't this way, but this is the reality of the world. Yes, it means moving slower and buying a house later (and for more money) - or never at all, but it isn't going to change and our hands are tied.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  >Yes, it means moving slower and buying a house later (and for more money) The latter is not necessarily true relative to other countries and showcases people don't understand the long term influence, or lack there off, of various contract structures. The US has at-will employment dangling a sword of Damocles over your head 24/7. Well, here we have temporary contracts not getting extended to permanent, and the status of a 'permanent' contract being the only way to open doors, which employers will royally abuse to lower other benefits. US or not, the premise remains the same. Don't be reliant on a party not looking out for your best interests.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  The entire US is not at-will employment. And companies with strong employee unions do not have this issue of suddenly and without notice firing their staff...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Well if you are lucky enough to live in Montana instead of the other 49 states….
  - peterangular 4y ago
    Minus Montana, every state is at-will employment of some sort or another. And, I think Montana may even have it in some form now. > And companies with strong employee unions do not have this issue of suddenly and without notice firing their staff... Lots of people don't work at a place with a union, and don't have access to unionized employment due to industry, current geography, etc. Also we're seeing a huge anti-union push by a lot of interests right now, recently notable being Starbucks.
ARandomerDude 4y ago
> Bank: "Congrats on your house purchase closing, your new monthly payment of $XXXX is due in two weeks!" Actually 30-60 days depending on when you close. And candidly, that should be enough time to find a new job for a company with a reasonable hiring process. This literally happened to me a few years ago. It was stressful but I was fine.
- luis8 4y ago
  Is there any insurance that will cover a X amount of months if you get fired?
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    Nope, although if you got disabled (perhaps from an accident at work) and were laid off as a result a short term disability insurance would help.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    It’s called “living below your means and saving money”. No matter where you are in the US, as software engineers you are probably making well above the median income for your location. You should be able to save an emergency fund.
    - acuozzo 4y ago
      > It’s called "living below your means and saving money". … or living well above your means in the time of asset bubbles left and right? Let's say you and your buddy both make $125K. If you bought a small $100K serious-fixer-upper house in order to live below your means in 2019 and your buddy bought a large $600K house at the same time which he could barely afford, then who would have "saved" more by mid-2021 when you both sold at 2X valuation? At some point "living below your means and saving money" needs to turn into "you need to spend money to make money". "Saving" does not protect you from inflation and it is of nearly zero value in the case of hyperinflation.
      - 4y ago
pdpi 4y ago
CEO: "Don't worry we are not planning any layoffs!" me: "Why are we talking about layoffs at all? Probably should start planning for contingencies" Don't get me wrong: There's almost certainly a more transparent way of doing this that doesn't involve straight up lying, and it's crummy as hell, but there's some amount of personal responsibility here in terms of knowing how to read between the lines.
scarface74 4y ago
At no point in my life as an adult have I ever depended on my current job for my financial stability. I depended on having a marketable set of skills, a network and a savings account. I definitely never went into buying a house without having 3 to six months worth of bills in the bank. On the other hand, as a software developer for 25 years, it’s never taken me more than a month to go from “I’m looking for a job” to “having an offer”. I’ve changed jobs 8 times abs six between 2008. Well to be honest, this last time took two months just because the hiring process takes longer at BigTech. But I wasn’t really looking. It just fell into my lap. Speaking of which, even in todays world. Any software developer who worked at Unity shouldn’t have any trouble finding another job quickly. That’s intended to be a compliment.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  > At no point in my life as an adult have I ever depended on my current job for my financial stability. I depended on having a marketable set of skills, a network and a savings account. Congratulations on being one of the most privileged people in the country. You realize ~50% of the country doesn't even have enough money in their checking/savings to cover a $400 emergency expense right? https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/49-of-americans-couldnt-cover-a-400-emergency-expense-today-up-from-32-in-november/ https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/49... This isn't a "well just stop buying avocado toast, and start pulling yourself up by bootstraps!" problem. This is a systemic problem with wage stagnation and complete decimation of the middle class over the last decades. The fact is the average American can only dream of having privilege you mention like not depending on their current employment to pay next month's rent/mortgage.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    We aren’t talking about “most people in the country”. We are talking about software engineers at a well known company that pays far above the median income. Software engineers at Unity are not “suffering” making between $196K to $330K+ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Unity-Technologies/salaries/Software-Engineer/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Unity-Technologies/salaries/S... My attitude was the same when I was making $33K as an operator/programmer in 1996 and when I bought my first house when I was making $70k in 2002. Also, if you are living paycheck to paycheck with $400 in your account, you shouldn’t be buying a house. A house comes with maintenance and responsibilities that you’re not going to be able to pay for. The parent poster used the scenario of someone buying a house and then getting laid off.
ThrowawayR2 4y ago
If an individual has chosen to be blissfully oblivious to - basic economic news though mainstream news sources, which has been plentiful - the overall financial health of their employer and the sector in which they operate, which usually make up a significant chunk of all-hands meetings, so there's no excuse for not having been exposed to it - the health of their product/service and its value to their employer as a whole, which they should know simply by virtue of, y'know, doing their jobs then frankly they're going to be blindsided by pretty much everything in their professional career, not just a mere layoff.

Frost1x 4y ago

It's a matter of perspective. We have a culture that largely puts business interests above independent peoples interests. If you agree with this then it makes complete sense that it's better for the company because that employee might have been kept and we want to keep them stable. If we warn them, they might become a flight risk and we might not need to cut them. Information asymmetry is our friend so let's give them only the information that's beneficial to us. If on the other hand you take the perspective of supporting a bottom up independent worker interests above a business's (I fall in this category), then your point is quite valid. Information asymmetry here put me in a terrible situation, if you would have told me earlier, I might have made different decisions. That might not include leaving, but it might have included tidying up my resume and prepping for interviews, just-in-case. Maybe I follow through or maybe I just keep some backups lined up in case things go south. Some may just pass the risk back to the business and jump ship since they assume they have better odds doing this and may even get a promotion. Personally I don't believe any business leadership's words, I skim financials, I watch movements in the laborforce especially around management, I look at markets and make my own interpretation. I assume they're providing intentional incomplete information to their advantage and try to infer reality from that combined with the other data sources. Businesses are not your friends and will lie to you to their advantage above all else. I'm not a subscriber to Hanlon's razor when it comes to self-interest. What can typically be attributed to self-interest should be considered above incompetence, especially when looking at something as strategic and methodical as a modern business structure that have countless meetings to sit around and discuss and analyze these sorts of things or contract specialized skilled services in these domains.

Nimitz14 4y ago
> It's a matter of perspective. We have a culture that largely puts business interests above independent peoples interests. No. It's about the fact that it's literally the CEO's job to put the business's interests above those of any individual employee. Anything else wouldn't make sense.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Good luck with that attitude when your company depends on highly skilled labor that comes from a very small pool of talent (relative to all labor in the country). The game industry, and game engine programmers in general, are a small group and if a company isn't good to their employees they are going to have a very, very difficult time hiring and staying competitive. It's not like they can just grab bodies and throw them at projects. Even hiring the very best and brightest cloud engineers from a FAANG is going to see them flounder and waste time ramping up to game engine development.
  - philipov 4y ago
    Unless, as the game industry tends to be, every employer is awful, and you can get away with it because there is a lack of better offers for people to consider.
  - Nimitz14 4y ago
    If one didn't have the attitude I mentioned the company will go under from employees leaving. You missed the point.
scarface74 4y ago
Why aren't you always keeping your resume tidy and staying ready to interview? In April 2020, when Covid hit, my company did an across the board paycut. The next week a recruiter reached out to me about a job that I really was T interested in. But we kept talking and she referred me to a job I was. I gave her my resume without any changes to it from before the pay cut announcement. I spoke to the (internal) recruiter about my accomplishments based on a “career document” that was updated. I did no special technical preparation for my interview loop (BigTech cloud consulting - app dev). I only practiced behavioral questions based on my career document.

nazka 4y ago

> It comes just weeks after Riccitiello told explicitly employees in an all-hands meeting that layoffs weren’t coming. I wonder about the legality of doing all this...

sidlls 4y ago
Even if it did run afoul of labor regulations, it's damn near trivial for a business to find a justification ("new information", "changing market conditions", etc.) for a change of plans.

eulers_secret 4y ago

It is well-known that if you're in the USA you can lose your job at any time, for no reason at all. At-will and all. People need to plan for that happening, and not just assume it can't happen to them. This example employee should have thought "Hmmm, I should wait some years and save a good amount extra just in case". I wish it weren't this way, but this is the reality of the world. Yes, it means moving slower and buying a house later (and for more money) - or never at all, but it isn't going to change and our hands are tied.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>Yes, it means moving slower and buying a house later (and for more money) The latter is not necessarily true relative to other countries and showcases people don't understand the long term influence, or lack there off, of various contract structures. The US has at-will employment dangling a sword of Damocles over your head 24/7. Well, here we have temporary contracts not getting extended to permanent, and the status of a 'permanent' contract being the only way to open doors, which employers will royally abuse to lower other benefits. US or not, the premise remains the same. Don't be reliant on a party not looking out for your best interests.
qbasic_forever 4y ago
The entire US is not at-will employment. And companies with strong employee unions do not have this issue of suddenly and without notice firing their staff...
- scarface74 4y ago
  Well if you are lucky enough to live in Montana instead of the other 49 states….
- peterangular 4y ago
  Minus Montana, every state is at-will employment of some sort or another. And, I think Montana may even have it in some form now. > And companies with strong employee unions do not have this issue of suddenly and without notice firing their staff... Lots of people don't work at a place with a union, and don't have access to unionized employment due to industry, current geography, etc. Also we're seeing a huge anti-union push by a lot of interests right now, recently notable being Starbucks.

ARandomerDude 4y ago

> Bank: "Congrats on your house purchase closing, your new monthly payment of $XXXX is due in two weeks!" Actually 30-60 days depending on when you close. And candidly, that should be enough time to find a new job for a company with a reasonable hiring process. This literally happened to me a few years ago. It was stressful but I was fine.

luis8 4y ago
Is there any insurance that will cover a X amount of months if you get fired?
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Nope, although if you got disabled (perhaps from an accident at work) and were laid off as a result a short term disability insurance would help.
- scarface74 4y ago
  It’s called “living below your means and saving money”. No matter where you are in the US, as software engineers you are probably making well above the median income for your location. You should be able to save an emergency fund.
  - acuozzo 4y ago
    > It’s called "living below your means and saving money". … or living well above your means in the time of asset bubbles left and right? Let's say you and your buddy both make $125K. If you bought a small $100K serious-fixer-upper house in order to live below your means in 2019 and your buddy bought a large $600K house at the same time which he could barely afford, then who would have "saved" more by mid-2021 when you both sold at 2X valuation? At some point "living below your means and saving money" needs to turn into "you need to spend money to make money". "Saving" does not protect you from inflation and it is of nearly zero value in the case of hyperinflation.
    - 4y ago

pdpi 4y ago

CEO: "Don't worry we are not planning any layoffs!" me: "Why are we talking about layoffs at all? Probably should start planning for contingencies" Don't get me wrong: There's almost certainly a more transparent way of doing this that doesn't involve straight up lying, and it's crummy as hell, but there's some amount of personal responsibility here in terms of knowing how to read between the lines.

scarface74 4y ago

At no point in my life as an adult have I ever depended on my current job for my financial stability. I depended on having a marketable set of skills, a network and a savings account. I definitely never went into buying a house without having 3 to six months worth of bills in the bank. On the other hand, as a software developer for 25 years, it’s never taken me more than a month to go from “I’m looking for a job” to “having an offer”. I’ve changed jobs 8 times abs six between 2008. Well to be honest, this last time took two months just because the hiring process takes longer at BigTech. But I wasn’t really looking. It just fell into my lap. Speaking of which, even in todays world. Any software developer who worked at Unity shouldn’t have any trouble finding another job quickly. That’s intended to be a compliment.

qbasic_forever 4y ago
> At no point in my life as an adult have I ever depended on my current job for my financial stability. I depended on having a marketable set of skills, a network and a savings account. Congratulations on being one of the most privileged people in the country. You realize ~50% of the country doesn't even have enough money in their checking/savings to cover a $400 emergency expense right? https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/49-of-americans-couldnt-cover-a-400-emergency-expense-today-up-from-32-in-november/ https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/49... This isn't a "well just stop buying avocado toast, and start pulling yourself up by bootstraps!" problem. This is a systemic problem with wage stagnation and complete decimation of the middle class over the last decades. The fact is the average American can only dream of having privilege you mention like not depending on their current employment to pay next month's rent/mortgage.
- scarface74 4y ago
  We aren’t talking about “most people in the country”. We are talking about software engineers at a well known company that pays far above the median income. Software engineers at Unity are not “suffering” making between $196K to $330K+ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Unity-Technologies/salaries/Software-Engineer/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Unity-Technologies/salaries/S... My attitude was the same when I was making $33K as an operator/programmer in 1996 and when I bought my first house when I was making $70k in 2002. Also, if you are living paycheck to paycheck with $400 in your account, you shouldn’t be buying a house. A house comes with maintenance and responsibilities that you’re not going to be able to pay for. The parent poster used the scenario of someone buying a house and then getting laid off.

ThrowawayR2 4y ago

If an individual has chosen to be blissfully oblivious to - basic economic news though mainstream news sources, which has been plentiful - the overall financial health of their employer and the sector in which they operate, which usually make up a significant chunk of all-hands meetings, so there's no excuse for not having been exposed to it - the health of their product/service and its value to their employer as a whole, which they should know simply by virtue of, y'know, doing their jobs then frankly they're going to be blindsided by pretty much everything in their professional career, not just a mere layoff.