6 ms·

In Europe it is common for multiple months of high pitch negotiations between "wanting to lay off" and layoffs. Usually without any riots or panic. I don't thi

In Europe it is common for multiple months of high pitch negotiations between "wanting to lay off" and layoffs. Usually without any riots or panic. I don't think a sudden layoff at any time is an assurance for workers in the sense that it is better to pretend everything is Ok until it isn't.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
In many European countries, employees have to give notice periods before quitting. They can't just not show up and say I quit. I have seen one month per year of employment topping out at 6 months
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  This is usually negotiable if you're leaving as well, it's not in the companies interest for the most part to keep you hanging around past wrapping current things up.
- Frost1x 4y ago
  Outside of explicit contract law you may be tangled up in, the US doesn't have explicit law and most employees are classified as "at-will" (basically, dependent upon where the business views this freedom as beneficial or non-beneficial to itself). Since businesses haven't managed to lobby such legislation requirements in for workers to give notice (largely because at-will is typically beneficial to them) and just use contract law where it matters (public personalities, etc.) you can just show up and quit legally, without legal repercussions. With that said, cultural protections have been put into place under job history in the application process. If I were to show up and without a very good reason tell me employer I quit effective immediately, I can do so unlike the European cases described. But is this really freedom or an illusion of freedom? Many in the US are living paycheck-to-paycheck to survive. They're financially leveraged and can't really just quit, they need to line up an opportunity and have minimal savings to protect them. For them they can make the choice but it's a bad choice for them and most of the time they won't. Businesses know this and leverage it. The pandemic labor market offered a shift in this giving some bargaining power back to labor but it seems to be clawing right back to businesses again, probably for quite some time. In what are classified as more professional positions, you're expected to give 2-weeks notice. Many employers request references and if you're honest during your interview, leaving without notice in most cases will require a good explanation and a competent interviewer, otherwise you're a red flag no hire almost immediately and there's a pool of others behind you without said red flag. So, I could quit tomorrow, but I'd have to be very careful with my next employer as to how I go about referencing my previous work, why I left, etc. In most cases I can't really just show up and quit, I need to give notice and wait. Perhaps that's not as long as some European countries closer to the order of 4 weeks IIRC but it's not as free as it might appear to be for the majority of laborers.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Well that would have certainly given me motivation to leave my current job sooner. If I wait N months to quit, I have to stay here another month? Fuck it I’m out.
- scarface74 4y ago
  And this is the other side of the coin. I personally wouldn’t want the tradeoff of lacking flexibility to leave.
Closi 4y ago
> In Europe it is common for multiple months of high pitch negotiations between "wanting to lay off" and layoffs. Usually without any riots or panic. I don't think a sudden layoff at any time is an assurance for workers in the sense that it is better to pretend everything is Ok until it isn't. It's important to note that this is typically a legal requirement (e.g. the requirement to consult prior to redundancy in the UK) rather than something typically done out of any good-will by the companies/employers.
dvt 4y ago
> In Europe it is common for multiple months of high pitch negotiations between "wanting to lay off" and layoffs. Usually without any riots or panic. I'm kind of tired of seeing this "well actually, in Europe..." -- there's a reason there's zero major tech innovation happening in Europe. There's a reason Google/FB/Netflix/etc. and 99% of other major software unicorns (save Spotify and handful of others) are from the US. To be successful as a company, you need to be nimble, not burn your runway with bureaucracy. Working for a startup is a risk and money, for the time being, is very tight.
- LambdaComplex 4y ago
  So being successful as a company requires having the right/ability to screw over your employees at the drop of a hat?
- etchalon 4y ago
  "Zero major tech innovation happening in Europe so long as you exclude every tech innovator in Europe." https://www.failory.com/startups/european-unicorns https://www.failory.com/startups/european-unicorns
  - humanwhosits 4y ago
    I looked at the list, it might be my US-centric bias but I'd only heard of 2 in that list before and they weren't big
    - etchalon 4y ago
      "might be"
    - OskarS 4y ago
      Ever heard of fucking Spotify?
      - scarface74 4y ago
        You mean the low margin unprofitable company that is at the mercy of the record labels and their “product” is the equivalent of a minor division for Google, Amazon and Apple?

s1artibartfast 4y ago

In many European countries, employees have to give notice periods before quitting. They can't just not show up and say I quit. I have seen one month per year of employment topping out at 6 months

meheleventyone 4y ago
This is usually negotiable if you're leaving as well, it's not in the companies interest for the most part to keep you hanging around past wrapping current things up.
Frost1x 4y ago
Outside of explicit contract law you may be tangled up in, the US doesn't have explicit law and most employees are classified as "at-will" (basically, dependent upon where the business views this freedom as beneficial or non-beneficial to itself). Since businesses haven't managed to lobby such legislation requirements in for workers to give notice (largely because at-will is typically beneficial to them) and just use contract law where it matters (public personalities, etc.) you can just show up and quit legally, without legal repercussions. With that said, cultural protections have been put into place under job history in the application process. If I were to show up and without a very good reason tell me employer I quit effective immediately, I can do so unlike the European cases described. But is this really freedom or an illusion of freedom? Many in the US are living paycheck-to-paycheck to survive. They're financially leveraged and can't really just quit, they need to line up an opportunity and have minimal savings to protect them. For them they can make the choice but it's a bad choice for them and most of the time they won't. Businesses know this and leverage it. The pandemic labor market offered a shift in this giving some bargaining power back to labor but it seems to be clawing right back to businesses again, probably for quite some time. In what are classified as more professional positions, you're expected to give 2-weeks notice. Many employers request references and if you're honest during your interview, leaving without notice in most cases will require a good explanation and a competent interviewer, otherwise you're a red flag no hire almost immediately and there's a pool of others behind you without said red flag. So, I could quit tomorrow, but I'd have to be very careful with my next employer as to how I go about referencing my previous work, why I left, etc. In most cases I can't really just show up and quit, I need to give notice and wait. Perhaps that's not as long as some European countries closer to the order of 4 weeks IIRC but it's not as free as it might appear to be for the majority of laborers.
hinkley 4y ago
Well that would have certainly given me motivation to leave my current job sooner. If I wait N months to quit, I have to stay here another month? Fuck it I’m out.
scarface74 4y ago
And this is the other side of the coin. I personally wouldn’t want the tradeoff of lacking flexibility to leave.

Closi 4y ago

> In Europe it is common for multiple months of high pitch negotiations between "wanting to lay off" and layoffs. Usually without any riots or panic. I don't think a sudden layoff at any time is an assurance for workers in the sense that it is better to pretend everything is Ok until it isn't. It's important to note that this is typically a legal requirement (e.g. the requirement to consult prior to redundancy in the UK) rather than something typically done out of any good-will by the companies/employers.

dvt 4y ago

> In Europe it is common for multiple months of high pitch negotiations between "wanting to lay off" and layoffs. Usually without any riots or panic. I'm kind of tired of seeing this "well actually, in Europe..." -- there's a reason there's zero major tech innovation happening in Europe. There's a reason Google/FB/Netflix/etc. and 99% of other major software unicorns (save Spotify and handful of others) are from the US. To be successful as a company, you need to be nimble, not burn your runway with bureaucracy. Working for a startup is a risk and money, for the time being, is very tight.

LambdaComplex 4y ago
So being successful as a company requires having the right/ability to screw over your employees at the drop of a hat?
etchalon 4y ago
"Zero major tech innovation happening in Europe so long as you exclude every tech innovator in Europe." https://www.failory.com/startups/european-unicorns https://www.failory.com/startups/european-unicorns
- humanwhosits 4y ago
  I looked at the list, it might be my US-centric bias but I'd only heard of 2 in that list before and they weren't big
  - etchalon 4y ago
    "might be"
  - OskarS 4y ago
    Ever heard of fucking Spotify?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You mean the low margin unprofitable company that is at the mercy of the record labels and their “product” is the equivalent of a minor division for Google, Amazon and Apple?