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Author here, very excited to share this with HN. Been seeing a lot of engineers thinking about getting into climate so I thought people might find it interestin

Author here, very excited to share this with HN. Been seeing a lot of engineers thinking about getting into climate so I thought people might find it interesting. Happy to answer any questions!

daniel_reetz 4y ago
For whatever it's worth, I see this same thing here in Los Angeles. Scrappers cut open fridges, minifridges, AC units, etc and vent the refrigerant wherever they found the device (usually right on the curb). If you could make it profitable for them to capture it, they would. They're not making a ton of money off the copper.
- exp1orer 4y ago
  Yeah that's definitely an issue! It's probably a bit less tractable than what we're dealing with because 1. Scrappers likely don't have the skills, equipment or inclination that AC technicians do. 2. Those self-contained units typically have a lot less refrigerant than the split AC systems (or large chillers) we see, which require venting in order to remove once installed. A refrigerator might have only 30 grams of charge, vs a split system with 2-3 kg.
moralestapia 4y ago
You mention that you destroy the captured refrigerants. Could you elaborate more on how do you accomplish this?
- exp1orer 4y ago
  We destroy it in an active cement kiln! The Montreal Protocol has a Technology and Economic Assessment Panel outlining approved destruction options[1] and this is one of their approved technologies. It's great for a few reasons: 1. Already operates at negative pressure with a high enough temperature and long enough residence time 2. Alkaline environment neutralizes the HF and HCl that are produced when the refrigerant burns. 3. Already consuming massive amounts of energy so the marginal energy use is negligible. 4. Allows use to use an existing facility instead of building our own -- great for developing countries where building infra is harder (but cement plants are everywhere). [1] https://ozone.unep.org/sites/default/files/2019-04/TEAP-DecXXIX4-TF-Report-April2018.pdf https://ozone.unep.org/sites/default/files/2019-04/TEAP-DecX...
  - moralestapia 4y ago
    Whoa, that's great. Also, thanks for that reference I have something new to read later on :)
  - theogravity 4y ago
    I wish you'd include this information in your blog post as I was wondering the same thing and would be more inclined to contribute.
  - kurupt213 4y ago
    If the temperature and ratios are right on the money, you end up blowing PCDD, PCDF, PCNs and PCBs out the Kiln Exhaust
    - exp1orer 4y ago
      Your bio suggests you know more about the chemical details than I do, but we do have 1. A trial burn done by an independent lab to make sure that under normal operating conditions, when destroying refrigerant the levels of those + other chemicals are below certain thresholds 2. automatic monitoring and shutoff mechanisms if the kiln deviates from normal conditions
      - kurupt213 4y ago
        I’m glad you have the safeguards. A lot of people don’t know to even be aware. Almost all the emissions of the chemicals I mentioned are from accidental creation now (mostly industrial fires and chemical waste incineration)
tornato7 4y ago
Have you reached out to KlimaDAO about this? It’s definitely something they would be interested in
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
Do you have a charity that accepts tax-deductible donations for buying and retiring those exact credits? The tax deductibility and employer gift matching means you could go a lot farther for each dollar a donor is willing to spend.
- exp1orer 4y ago
  That is a super interesting idea! Hadn't considered it, have you seen anyone doing this with carbon credits before?
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
    Absolutely. https://www.myclimate.org/ https://www.myclimate.org/ in Europe. https://carbonfund.org/ https://carbonfund.org/ seems to be one of the orgs doing it in the US, I would be surprised if there aren't others. Edit: https://www.google.com/search?q=charity+retire+carbon+credits https://www.google.com/search?q=charity+retire+carbon+credit... has plenty more

Author here, very excited to share this with HN. Been seeing a lot of engineers thinking about getting into climate so I thought people might find it interesting. Happy to answer any questions!

daniel_reetz 4y ago

For whatever it's worth, I see this same thing here in Los Angeles. Scrappers cut open fridges, minifridges, AC units, etc and vent the refrigerant wherever they found the device (usually right on the curb). If you could make it profitable for them to capture it, they would. They're not making a ton of money off the copper.

exp1orer 4y ago
Yeah that's definitely an issue! It's probably a bit less tractable than what we're dealing with because 1. Scrappers likely don't have the skills, equipment or inclination that AC technicians do. 2. Those self-contained units typically have a lot less refrigerant than the split AC systems (or large chillers) we see, which require venting in order to remove once installed. A refrigerator might have only 30 grams of charge, vs a split system with 2-3 kg.

moralestapia 4y ago

You mention that you destroy the captured refrigerants. Could you elaborate more on how do you accomplish this?

exp1orer 4y ago
We destroy it in an active cement kiln! The Montreal Protocol has a Technology and Economic Assessment Panel outlining approved destruction options[1] and this is one of their approved technologies. It's great for a few reasons: 1. Already operates at negative pressure with a high enough temperature and long enough residence time 2. Alkaline environment neutralizes the HF and HCl that are produced when the refrigerant burns. 3. Already consuming massive amounts of energy so the marginal energy use is negligible. 4. Allows use to use an existing facility instead of building our own -- great for developing countries where building infra is harder (but cement plants are everywhere). [1] https://ozone.unep.org/sites/default/files/2019-04/TEAP-DecXXIX4-TF-Report-April2018.pdf https://ozone.unep.org/sites/default/files/2019-04/TEAP-DecX...
- moralestapia 4y ago
  Whoa, that's great. Also, thanks for that reference I have something new to read later on :)
- theogravity 4y ago
  I wish you'd include this information in your blog post as I was wondering the same thing and would be more inclined to contribute.
- kurupt213 4y ago
  If the temperature and ratios are right on the money, you end up blowing PCDD, PCDF, PCNs and PCBs out the Kiln Exhaust
  - exp1orer 4y ago
    Your bio suggests you know more about the chemical details than I do, but we do have 1. A trial burn done by an independent lab to make sure that under normal operating conditions, when destroying refrigerant the levels of those + other chemicals are below certain thresholds 2. automatic monitoring and shutoff mechanisms if the kiln deviates from normal conditions
    - kurupt213 4y ago
      I’m glad you have the safeguards. A lot of people don’t know to even be aware. Almost all the emissions of the chemicals I mentioned are from accidental creation now (mostly industrial fires and chemical waste incineration)

tornato7 4y ago

Have you reached out to KlimaDAO about this? It’s definitely something they would be interested in

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago

Do you have a charity that accepts tax-deductible donations for buying and retiring those exact credits? The tax deductibility and employer gift matching means you could go a lot farther for each dollar a donor is willing to spend.

exp1orer 4y ago
That is a super interesting idea! Hadn't considered it, have you seen anyone doing this with carbon credits before?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  Absolutely. https://www.myclimate.org/ https://www.myclimate.org/ in Europe. https://carbonfund.org/ https://carbonfund.org/ seems to be one of the orgs doing it in the US, I would be surprised if there aren't others. Edit: https://www.google.com/search?q=charity+retire+carbon+credits https://www.google.com/search?q=charity+retire+carbon+credit... has plenty more