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Well, it's not about that. It's that one of the reasons the Netherlands never legalized is that the rest of Europe didn't. So we were afraid that we'd become a

Well, it's not about that. It's that one of the reasons the Netherlands never legalized is that the rest of Europe didn't. So we were afraid that we'd become a place where international criminals come to produce massive amounts of weed legally to then export it illegally. When countries surrounding us start legalizing, we have no reason not to. Since growing weed is purely done by criminals right now, we're also afraid to legalize because legal weed farms might get issues with criminal involvement or threat because the criminals lose a huge income source. If we don't legalize however when Germany does, we'll then get a bunch of trafficking from Germany to the Netherlands. We're in a bit of a pickle and it'll be interesting to see what our Christian/Liberal/Progressive government will come up with. I expect them to just ignore it and continue by doing pretty much nothing until it's a real problem.

tcmart14 4y ago
> Since growing weed is purely done by criminals right now, we're also afraid to legalize because legal weed farms might get issues with criminal involvement or threat because the criminals lose a huge income source. If we don't legalize however when Germany does, we'll then get a bunch of trafficking from Germany to the Netherlands. Oregon legalized weed and this hasn't been a huge problem. But if people fear it is, the solution to this is simple. Make it easy to become a legal grower.
- cronix 4y ago
  I'm in Oregon as well. There have been many news stories in Southern Oregon about the large cartel operations that are bigger than before legalization, because now they more or less blend in with the legal growers. They also involved trafficked humans to work there with passports withheld. Some of the increase has been attributed to California's drought, so they're moving north to greener pastures, so to speak. The illegal growing is more than twice as much as licensed growing. Twice. I don't know how you can say there is no problem. > The $2.78 billion in illegal marijuana found in Southern Oregon dwarfs the nearly $1.2 billion in legal marijuana sold at shops in the entire state in 2021. > Behind the scenes, immigrant workers may face threats of violent retaliation against their relatives in Mexico if they complain about living and working conditions at illegal sites, or the withholding of wages. > “The cartels will kill their family back in Mexico. They know there is a realistic likelihood that would happen,” Barden said. https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts-in-southern-oregon-exceed-2-7-billion/ https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts... > “We’ve heard of the threat of harm to your family if you don’t go with us”, Daniel said. “And then they are transported up to the location. From what we are understanding, these workers are not paid until the end of the year when the shipment goes out and the money is brought in. There’s not like a weekly payroll going on here.” > Sixteen other state and federal agencies joined the Josephine County Sheriff’s department in the raid, including the Department of Homeland Security. The operation included more than 1,300 acres of property as well as 200 workers. > Officials found workers living in squalid conditions, which included sleeping on cardboard mats or inside tends. Workers denying that they had been trafficked, Daniel said. The Department of Homeland Security offered victim services to the workers, but all turned them down, according to Daniel. This could be for several reasons, including fear of their employers or immigration authorities. https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon-marijuana-farm-under-investigation-for-human-trafficking-forced-labor.html https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon... > Sergeant Cliff Barden, of the Oregon State Police Basin Interagency Narcotics Enforcement Team (BINET), said illegal grows in Klamath County are clearly linked to drug cartels. He said the cartel’s strategy in the area is to overwhelm local agencies and resources with the sheer volume of production, ensuring that much of the operation will go unnoticed and ultimate generating immense profits. > “They are intentionally trying to overwhelm the system,” Barden said. “And that is why it is so difficult.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illegal-marijuana-grows-in-southern-oregon-and-mexican-cartels/ar-AAPZ1tK https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illega...
  - idleproc 4y ago
    Why is this the case though? Take coffee for instance, it's widely grown in South America--is most of the production run by cartels? Or is it just that cannabis is a high-value crop, and it's easier to move the produce around the USA from within, rather than having to smuggle it over the border? And if cannabis is a high-value crop, is it because not all states have 'legalised' it? What if the whole world legalised cannabis, would it become like coffee?
    - aurizon 4y ago
      waaay back hemp was grown for fiber. Hemp for THC can be grown just as cheaply as hemp for fiber. With no meddling it would be very very cheap - $2 a pound or less. The selected sterile hybrid female plants are smaller than the old hemp used as rope = lower yield, so it will not be as cheap as hemp fiber = $250 per ton. $1 a pound is $2000 per ton, so it will be in that range if totally unregulated.
    - cronix 4y ago
      Yes, it's because there is a large black market in states that haven't legalized it and in a lot of cases, they're selling it cheaper than the stores where it's legal. The state sanctioned growers all have to have their products tested in labs for purity, pesticides as well as percentage of THC/CBD. The stores (separate entity) also have heavy regulations and security requirements as these are strictly cash businesses (since it's still federally illegal, you can't use federally regulated banks, or credit cards). It's expensive to do so. There is also quite a high state tax on cannabis sales. Illegal growers don't have any of that. It's also a lot simpler to cross state lines than international borders as most states don't have border checks. I know California does to check if you have fruit on board (large agricultural state trying to prevent various pests/diseases), but out of hundreds of trips across the border we were only actually inspected once and that was likely because we were in a camper so they couldn't just look in the window and see. As a different example, there are "dry towns" where alcohol sales are illegal. The bordering bars where it is legal do very well.
idleproc 4y ago
> we were afraid that we'd become a place where international criminals come to produce massive amounts of weed legally to then export it illegally I remember a few years back, someone in the Dutch police claimed the Netherlands was on its way to becoming a narco-state [1]. I'm ignorant about the domestic issues there, so correct me, but it seems like the legality of drugs is a separate issue to the control of organised crime in the country. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50821542 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50821542
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  Drugs earn criminals literally billions of euro every year. Money corrupts. Whether it's in Mexico or the Netherlands. I think the closest analogy for Americans is what happened during prohibition.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- petre 4y ago
  NL is still a central hub for drug traffic. This is a consequence of the NL ports being very efficient. Belgium and Spain are other entry points for cocaine. But there have also been some high profile arrests of drug lords in the NL, such as the arrest of Tse Chi Lop, the head of the Sam Gor syndicate, responsible for a $8bn per year meth trade. Here's a 70 page report only on cocaine trade. https://border-security-report.com/the-cocaine-pipeline-to-europe/ https://border-security-report.com/the-cocaine-pipeline-to-e...

tcmart14 4y ago

> Since growing weed is purely done by criminals right now, we're also afraid to legalize because legal weed farms might get issues with criminal involvement or threat because the criminals lose a huge income source. If we don't legalize however when Germany does, we'll then get a bunch of trafficking from Germany to the Netherlands. Oregon legalized weed and this hasn't been a huge problem. But if people fear it is, the solution to this is simple. Make it easy to become a legal grower.

cronix 4y ago
I'm in Oregon as well. There have been many news stories in Southern Oregon about the large cartel operations that are bigger than before legalization, because now they more or less blend in with the legal growers. They also involved trafficked humans to work there with passports withheld. Some of the increase has been attributed to California's drought, so they're moving north to greener pastures, so to speak. The illegal growing is more than twice as much as licensed growing. Twice. I don't know how you can say there is no problem. > The $2.78 billion in illegal marijuana found in Southern Oregon dwarfs the nearly $1.2 billion in legal marijuana sold at shops in the entire state in 2021. > Behind the scenes, immigrant workers may face threats of violent retaliation against their relatives in Mexico if they complain about living and working conditions at illegal sites, or the withholding of wages. > “The cartels will kill their family back in Mexico. They know there is a realistic likelihood that would happen,” Barden said. https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts-in-southern-oregon-exceed-2-7-billion/ https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts... > “We’ve heard of the threat of harm to your family if you don’t go with us”, Daniel said. “And then they are transported up to the location. From what we are understanding, these workers are not paid until the end of the year when the shipment goes out and the money is brought in. There’s not like a weekly payroll going on here.” > Sixteen other state and federal agencies joined the Josephine County Sheriff’s department in the raid, including the Department of Homeland Security. The operation included more than 1,300 acres of property as well as 200 workers. > Officials found workers living in squalid conditions, which included sleeping on cardboard mats or inside tends. Workers denying that they had been trafficked, Daniel said. The Department of Homeland Security offered victim services to the workers, but all turned them down, according to Daniel. This could be for several reasons, including fear of their employers or immigration authorities. https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon-marijuana-farm-under-investigation-for-human-trafficking-forced-labor.html https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon... > Sergeant Cliff Barden, of the Oregon State Police Basin Interagency Narcotics Enforcement Team (BINET), said illegal grows in Klamath County are clearly linked to drug cartels. He said the cartel’s strategy in the area is to overwhelm local agencies and resources with the sheer volume of production, ensuring that much of the operation will go unnoticed and ultimate generating immense profits. > “They are intentionally trying to overwhelm the system,” Barden said. “And that is why it is so difficult.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illegal-marijuana-grows-in-southern-oregon-and-mexican-cartels/ar-AAPZ1tK https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illega...
- idleproc 4y ago
  Why is this the case though? Take coffee for instance, it's widely grown in South America--is most of the production run by cartels? Or is it just that cannabis is a high-value crop, and it's easier to move the produce around the USA from within, rather than having to smuggle it over the border? And if cannabis is a high-value crop, is it because not all states have 'legalised' it? What if the whole world legalised cannabis, would it become like coffee?
  - aurizon 4y ago
    waaay back hemp was grown for fiber. Hemp for THC can be grown just as cheaply as hemp for fiber. With no meddling it would be very very cheap - $2 a pound or less. The selected sterile hybrid female plants are smaller than the old hemp used as rope = lower yield, so it will not be as cheap as hemp fiber = $250 per ton. $1 a pound is $2000 per ton, so it will be in that range if totally unregulated.
  - cronix 4y ago
    Yes, it's because there is a large black market in states that haven't legalized it and in a lot of cases, they're selling it cheaper than the stores where it's legal. The state sanctioned growers all have to have their products tested in labs for purity, pesticides as well as percentage of THC/CBD. The stores (separate entity) also have heavy regulations and security requirements as these are strictly cash businesses (since it's still federally illegal, you can't use federally regulated banks, or credit cards). It's expensive to do so. There is also quite a high state tax on cannabis sales. Illegal growers don't have any of that. It's also a lot simpler to cross state lines than international borders as most states don't have border checks. I know California does to check if you have fruit on board (large agricultural state trying to prevent various pests/diseases), but out of hundreds of trips across the border we were only actually inspected once and that was likely because we were in a camper so they couldn't just look in the window and see. As a different example, there are "dry towns" where alcohol sales are illegal. The bordering bars where it is legal do very well.

idleproc 4y ago

> we were afraid that we'd become a place where international criminals come to produce massive amounts of weed legally to then export it illegally I remember a few years back, someone in the Dutch police claimed the Netherlands was on its way to becoming a narco-state [1]. I'm ignorant about the domestic issues there, so correct me, but it seems like the legality of drugs is a separate issue to the control of organised crime in the country. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50821542 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50821542

MomoXenosaga 4y ago
Drugs earn criminals literally billions of euro every year. Money corrupts. Whether it's in Mexico or the Netherlands. I think the closest analogy for Americans is what happened during prohibition.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
petre 4y ago
NL is still a central hub for drug traffic. This is a consequence of the NL ports being very efficient. Belgium and Spain are other entry points for cocaine. But there have also been some high profile arrests of drug lords in the NL, such as the arrest of Tse Chi Lop, the head of the Sam Gor syndicate, responsible for a $8bn per year meth trade. Here's a 70 page report only on cocaine trade. https://border-security-report.com/the-cocaine-pipeline-to-europe/ https://border-security-report.com/the-cocaine-pipeline-to-e...