4 ms·

It's crazy we are still having these kind of debates in Europe. 20 years ago most youth around 18/20 thought Cannabis would have already been legalised by now,

by aikah 4y ago

It's crazy we are still having these kind of debates in Europe. 20 years ago most youth around 18/20 thought Cannabis would have already been legalised by now, I don't believe one second that any of the European elected official under 50 never smoked pot. The only possible explanation I see is heavy lobbying from big pharma groups or wine interests.

ketzu 4y ago
> I don't believe one second that any of the European elected official under 50 never smoked pot. To be honest, just the very first statistics I could find on the topic, I didn't put any effort in looking it up at all: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/emcdda-daily-cannabis-use-2012_400271.pdf https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/e... says the following > In the 2012 EMCDDA Annual report, it is conservatively estimated that cannabis has been used at least once (lifetime prevalence) by around 80.5 million Europeans: almost one in four of all 15- to 64-year-olds. This matches my personal experience (currently mid 30s in Germany) a lot closer, unless politicans are vastly more likely to smoke pot (or pot smokers vastly more likely to go into politics) I have a hard time imagining your estimate is even close to true.
jotm 4y ago
A couple of things that I'm sad about: there are medications better than cannabis for anxiety and depression. But no one talks about them. They're on the same level as alcohol and weed when it comes to addiction potential and harm. Just make them legal ffs. I'm really happy I can get them from pharmacies in my country because they're not on a restricted prescription so they just give them to you if you pinky promise that you have/had a prescription. That said, it's technically illegal. And 2: holy shit eastern European states are dumb. They are missing out on billions in sales and tourism by not legalizing cannabis alone. And now western states will legalize it and reap all the benefits. Watch how eastern states just keep complaining about the brain drain, workforce drain, money problems while doing nothing effective to combat it. Just cheap places to build factories and buy homes for retirement. Great job.
- schroeding 4y ago
  > there are medications better than cannabis for anxiety and depression. But no one talks about them. Could you maybe name them? Would be awesome :)
  - symlinkk 4y ago
    +1, I need help.
  - jotm 4y ago
    I've become reluctant to do it since many people can't properly administer them and/or fall into addiction. Then again, it happens with cannabis, too. But eh, whatever, you're responsible for yourself. For me, gabapentinoids and gabaergics work great. Pregabalin, Gabapentin, Sodium Oxybate are what I have experimented with and found to be good. Currently on Pregabalin 2x150mg morning+evening. Each dose lasts 6-7 hours (and lingers for much longer, 24-48 hours). I'd recommend starting with 75mg, only on empty stomach. Effects start after 1-2 hours, if you don't feel anything, up the dose. Don't take too much, I tried 300-450mg in one dose, was too stupefying. Quitting is easy by tapering down over a week. May have 1-2 days of bad sleep or insomnia. Minimized anxiety, suicidal thoughts gone, and it even mixes well with most stimulants (for ADHD). Pretty much the same for Gabapentin, which was great, better than pregabalin (more energy and creativity), until I quit it for ~6 months and now I have some sort of permanent tolerance. It's strange. Sodium Oxybate (aka GHB!) is also great, easier to get but dosing is difficult, it's short lasting and has a big impact on sleep (forced me into biphasic sleep, which is actually how narcoleptics take it), can't fall asleep without it, but it's great quality sleep after ~3 weeks). Big danger of addiction, even though quitting is easy by tapering down over a week. Basically you need more than 12 hours between after the last dose. Or if you fall into a 24/7 trap (taking it every 1-3 hours), lower the dosage every day. Much harder than it sounds so just never take it more than 3-4 times a day and never more than 3-4 grams at a time. Would not recommend it unless you're really good at self-restraint and/or quitting drugs. Quitting an a-pvp binge was easier than sodium oxybate. There's also benzodiazepines and phenibut that I stay clear of (they act partially or fully on GABA-A, way more dangerous/addictive than those that act on GABA-B), and baclofen that I haven't tried due to unavailability. They all have quite different effects and you need to find a right dosage/schedule. Gotta see what works best for you. To put it in simple terms, they're mostly like alcohol without the negative effects. I have to say I've been a long time functional alcoholic (over a decade of near daily use), so either my brain craves something for GABA receptors or I've screwed it up and now this stuff works. Still, any of them are less stupefying than cannabis (and at higher dosages close to it in relaxation effects) and have none of the occasional negative effects like paranoia. Also, I use tizanidine to knock myself to sleep when quitting various stuff. But holy shit, please for the love of everything learn to use medication responsibly, learn to quit them and not fall into abuse, because withdrawal can be ugly.
moonchrome 4y ago
>The only possible explanation I see is heavy lobbying from big pharma groups or wine interests. What about church ? Last time I checked church was very much against this, and is a far larger political influence than those you mentioned. I could be wrong - but in my peer group the first people I would see vote against weed would be the religious.
_fat_santa 4y ago
> or wine interests. As an American, we are well familiar with Big Pharma but the wine lobby? Is that really a thing in Europe? How influential are they around these kinds of policy? Edit: Sorry for the barrage of questions, you've really piqued my interest.
- hocuspocus 4y ago
  They definitely have some weight. For instance in a few countries they fight campaigns like Dry January. Fun fact: one hundred years ago the wine lobby successfully killed absinthe using bogus scientific claims, and today Pernod Ricard are on their side of the lobbying.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  France: "Wine growing makes up 15% of France's agricultural revenues while accounting for only 3% of the land area used." "France consumes over 30 million hectoliters of wine (14% of global output) every year, making it one of the world’s largest consumers alongside the United States and Italy. The average French person consumes 48 liters of wine a year. (larvf.com)" Source: https://www.businessfrance.fr/Media/Default/PROCOM/Kits/Agroalimentaire/Business_France-Wine_Industry.pdf https://www.businessfrance.fr/Media/Default/PROCOM/Kits/Agro... Germany: "When calculated per German citizen, this corresponds to an average consumption of still and sparkling wines of 23.4 liters annually per person. Of this wine, 8.7 liters are domestic still wines, 11.4 liters are foreign still wines and 3.3 liters are sparkling wines." Source: https://blog.drinktec.com/wine/german-wine-consumption-and-production/ https://blog.drinktec.com/wine/german-wine-consumption-and-p... It's hundreds of thousands of hectares of land and a massive employer. Unlike other agriculture products, the margins on wine are very high.
Nextgrid 4y ago
> The only possible explanation I see is heavy lobbying from big pharma groups or wine interests. More likely law enforcement. The criminalization of drugs provides an endless supply of criminals of various levels (from the drug production/distribution itself to weapons and violence used to defend the illegal operation) and thus generates endless amounts of work for all kinds of people involved in law enforcement, from police to prisons to various subcontractors providing goods/services used by the aforementioned entities. Most of those are not criminals because they want to hurt people or break the law on purpose and thus will no longer be criminals when drugs are legalized (instead of switching to another crime to remain a criminal). Thus, the second it's legalized, the "demand" for law enforcement services drops dramatically, and the crimes that do remain will require more effort to solve than your typical drug case.
agilob 4y ago
> 20 years ago most youth around 18/20 thought Cannabis would have already been legalised by now I was completely sober 20 years ago and never thought that.

by aikah 4y ago

ketzu 4y ago

> I don't believe one second that any of the European elected official under 50 never smoked pot. To be honest, just the very first statistics I could find on the topic, I didn't put any effort in looking it up at all: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/emcdda-daily-cannabis-use-2012_400271.pdf https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/753/e... says the following > In the 2012 EMCDDA Annual report, it is conservatively estimated that cannabis has been used at least once (lifetime prevalence) by around 80.5 million Europeans: almost one in four of all 15- to 64-year-olds. This matches my personal experience (currently mid 30s in Germany) a lot closer, unless politicans are vastly more likely to smoke pot (or pot smokers vastly more likely to go into politics) I have a hard time imagining your estimate is even close to true.

jotm 4y ago

A couple of things that I'm sad about: there are medications better than cannabis for anxiety and depression. But no one talks about them. They're on the same level as alcohol and weed when it comes to addiction potential and harm. Just make them legal ffs. I'm really happy I can get them from pharmacies in my country because they're not on a restricted prescription so they just give them to you if you pinky promise that you have/had a prescription. That said, it's technically illegal. And 2: holy shit eastern European states are dumb. They are missing out on billions in sales and tourism by not legalizing cannabis alone. And now western states will legalize it and reap all the benefits. Watch how eastern states just keep complaining about the brain drain, workforce drain, money problems while doing nothing effective to combat it. Just cheap places to build factories and buy homes for retirement. Great job.

schroeding 4y ago
> there are medications better than cannabis for anxiety and depression. But no one talks about them. Could you maybe name them? Would be awesome :)
- symlinkk 4y ago
  +1, I need help.
- jotm 4y ago
  I've become reluctant to do it since many people can't properly administer them and/or fall into addiction. Then again, it happens with cannabis, too. But eh, whatever, you're responsible for yourself. For me, gabapentinoids and gabaergics work great. Pregabalin, Gabapentin, Sodium Oxybate are what I have experimented with and found to be good. Currently on Pregabalin 2x150mg morning+evening. Each dose lasts 6-7 hours (and lingers for much longer, 24-48 hours). I'd recommend starting with 75mg, only on empty stomach. Effects start after 1-2 hours, if you don't feel anything, up the dose. Don't take too much, I tried 300-450mg in one dose, was too stupefying. Quitting is easy by tapering down over a week. May have 1-2 days of bad sleep or insomnia. Minimized anxiety, suicidal thoughts gone, and it even mixes well with most stimulants (for ADHD). Pretty much the same for Gabapentin, which was great, better than pregabalin (more energy and creativity), until I quit it for ~6 months and now I have some sort of permanent tolerance. It's strange. Sodium Oxybate (aka GHB!) is also great, easier to get but dosing is difficult, it's short lasting and has a big impact on sleep (forced me into biphasic sleep, which is actually how narcoleptics take it), can't fall asleep without it, but it's great quality sleep after ~3 weeks). Big danger of addiction, even though quitting is easy by tapering down over a week. Basically you need more than 12 hours between after the last dose. Or if you fall into a 24/7 trap (taking it every 1-3 hours), lower the dosage every day. Much harder than it sounds so just never take it more than 3-4 times a day and never more than 3-4 grams at a time. Would not recommend it unless you're really good at self-restraint and/or quitting drugs. Quitting an a-pvp binge was easier than sodium oxybate. There's also benzodiazepines and phenibut that I stay clear of (they act partially or fully on GABA-A, way more dangerous/addictive than those that act on GABA-B), and baclofen that I haven't tried due to unavailability. They all have quite different effects and you need to find a right dosage/schedule. Gotta see what works best for you. To put it in simple terms, they're mostly like alcohol without the negative effects. I have to say I've been a long time functional alcoholic (over a decade of near daily use), so either my brain craves something for GABA receptors or I've screwed it up and now this stuff works. Still, any of them are less stupefying than cannabis (and at higher dosages close to it in relaxation effects) and have none of the occasional negative effects like paranoia. Also, I use tizanidine to knock myself to sleep when quitting various stuff. But holy shit, please for the love of everything learn to use medication responsibly, learn to quit them and not fall into abuse, because withdrawal can be ugly.

moonchrome 4y ago

>The only possible explanation I see is heavy lobbying from big pharma groups or wine interests. What about church ? Last time I checked church was very much against this, and is a far larger political influence than those you mentioned. I could be wrong - but in my peer group the first people I would see vote against weed would be the religious.

_fat_santa 4y ago

> or wine interests. As an American, we are well familiar with Big Pharma but the wine lobby? Is that really a thing in Europe? How influential are they around these kinds of policy? Edit: Sorry for the barrage of questions, you've really piqued my interest.

hocuspocus 4y ago
They definitely have some weight. For instance in a few countries they fight campaigns like Dry January. Fun fact: one hundred years ago the wine lobby successfully killed absinthe using bogus scientific claims, and today Pernod Ricard are on their side of the lobbying.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
France: "Wine growing makes up 15% of France's agricultural revenues while accounting for only 3% of the land area used." "France consumes over 30 million hectoliters of wine (14% of global output) every year, making it one of the world’s largest consumers alongside the United States and Italy. The average French person consumes 48 liters of wine a year. (larvf.com)" Source: https://www.businessfrance.fr/Media/Default/PROCOM/Kits/Agroalimentaire/Business_France-Wine_Industry.pdf https://www.businessfrance.fr/Media/Default/PROCOM/Kits/Agro... Germany: "When calculated per German citizen, this corresponds to an average consumption of still and sparkling wines of 23.4 liters annually per person. Of this wine, 8.7 liters are domestic still wines, 11.4 liters are foreign still wines and 3.3 liters are sparkling wines." Source: https://blog.drinktec.com/wine/german-wine-consumption-and-production/ https://blog.drinktec.com/wine/german-wine-consumption-and-p... It's hundreds of thousands of hectares of land and a massive employer. Unlike other agriculture products, the margins on wine are very high.

Nextgrid 4y ago

> The only possible explanation I see is heavy lobbying from big pharma groups or wine interests. More likely law enforcement. The criminalization of drugs provides an endless supply of criminals of various levels (from the drug production/distribution itself to weapons and violence used to defend the illegal operation) and thus generates endless amounts of work for all kinds of people involved in law enforcement, from police to prisons to various subcontractors providing goods/services used by the aforementioned entities. Most of those are not criminals because they want to hurt people or break the law on purpose and thus will no longer be criminals when drugs are legalized (instead of switching to another crime to remain a criminal). Thus, the second it's legalized, the "demand" for law enforcement services drops dramatically, and the crimes that do remain will require more effort to solve than your typical drug case.

agilob 4y ago

> 20 years ago most youth around 18/20 thought Cannabis would have already been legalised by now I was completely sober 20 years ago and never thought that.