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There is a big poster at the end of my road, that is trying to recruit drivers, with a starting bonus, and reasonable hours and conditions. So all the drivers l

There is a big poster at the end of my road, that is trying to recruit drivers, with a starting bonus, and reasonable hours and conditions. So all the drivers leaving the industry seem to have at least got their point across to someone.

jaclaz 4y ago
It is not the UK only, here in Italy there was an entrepreneur (in logistics/transports) who was not finding drivers that pointed out how (for a number of reasons, possibly all of them right) to get nowadays a truck driving license (for TIRs) is very costly (both in terms of time and of money, if I recall correctly something like 6,000-10,000 Euro) and there was the issue on how he could pay in advance the costs but there was apparently no legal way to recover them (by keeping a part of the monthly pay of the worker over a "fair" period, I seem to remember 2 years), as it had happened to him that as soon as the candidate drivers would get the driving license they would resign and find work in another company. In the UK I believe part of the problem is/was Brexit because a number of drivers were from eastern EU and they didn't want or could not obtain residence/work permit/whatever needed to continue working in the UK, here (where there is not such a problem for workers from the EU) the lack of them is mainly "concurrent retirement" of a whole generation born between roughly 1955 and 1965 and the initial "access cost" to get the driving license for the young people that may want to start the job.
- mmarq 4y ago
  > It is not the UK only, here in Italy there was an entrepreneur (in logistics/transports) who was not finding drivers that pointed out how (for a number of reasons, possibly all of them right) to get nowadays a truck driving license (for TIRs) is very costly (both in terms of time and of money, if I recall correctly something like 6,000-10,000 Euro) and there was the issue on how he could pay in advance the costs but there was apparently no legal way to recover them (by keeping a part of the monthly pay of the worker over a "fair" period, I seem to remember 2 years), as it had happened to him that as soon as the candidate drivers would get the driving license they would resign and find work in another company. This is peak Italian entrepreneurship. This guy invested some money in training and then went on TV to play the martyr because he can’t retain employees. Instead of doing the right and most obvious thing, that is paying market salaries, he complaints that indentured labor is no longer legal.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    I didn't see him on TV, I read an article on a newspaper about the issue, I dont' think that there was anyone playing martyr, nor any intention for indentured labor or similar, it was - as I read it at the time - simply a rant about the scarcity of qualified drivers and the difficulties in hiring new workers (unqualified) and assist them in getting the license, as doing that would become a too large investment for the firm, and asked (this is actually italian entrpreneurship) for some form of assistance by the state. At least in the interview he stated that the people would be paid the national contract wage, roughly 3,000 Euro/month net, which is "market salary". Here is the online article (the one on the actual newspaper was longer and more detailed AFAICR): https://www.corriere.it/economia/lavoro/21_agosto_11/cerco-60-autisti-camion-3000-euro-mese-non-li-trovo-b57347be-fa0c-11eb-8ca9-234c5a5d119d.shtml https://www.corriere.it/economia/lavoro/21_agosto_11/cerco-6... (not too bad in Google translate).
    - mmarq 4y ago
      In the article it says that he’s not going to pay for the driving license, so the part where he says he’d like to keep the worker for 2 years is missing (I was referring to that as indentured labor). Said that, if you can’t find workers, you are not paying the market clearing salary. Maybe now you have to offer 4K€ for 4 days of work. Proposing that the state pays for these licences is not that insane, it may address a market failure. Many countries, Italy included, have similar programs to help the unemployed find a job.
      - jaclaz 4y ago
        I believe you are oversimplifying the issues. >Said that, if you can’t find workers, you are not paying the market clearing salary. Maybe now you have to offer 4K€ for 4 days of work. Yes, and 5K€ would be even better, too bad that on the other side (the firm income) prices are de facto capped, so it is not possible to pay more the workers, margins in this field are really thin. And 3K€/month net is already a rather high salary in Italy. >Proposing that the state pays for these licences is not that insane, it may address a market failure. Many countries, Italy included, have similar programs to help the unemployed find a job. Cannot say how much they are effective in other countries, but I can tell you that in Italy these programs in practice rarely succeed in making even a dent in unemployment numbers, for a number of reasons.

jaclaz 4y ago

It is not the UK only, here in Italy there was an entrepreneur (in logistics/transports) who was not finding drivers that pointed out how (for a number of reasons, possibly all of them right) to get nowadays a truck driving license (for TIRs) is very costly (both in terms of time and of money, if I recall correctly something like 6,000-10,000 Euro) and there was the issue on how he could pay in advance the costs but there was apparently no legal way to recover them (by keeping a part of the monthly pay of the worker over a "fair" period, I seem to remember 2 years), as it had happened to him that as soon as the candidate drivers would get the driving license they would resign and find work in another company. In the UK I believe part of the problem is/was Brexit because a number of drivers were from eastern EU and they didn't want or could not obtain residence/work permit/whatever needed to continue working in the UK, here (where there is not such a problem for workers from the EU) the lack of them is mainly "concurrent retirement" of a whole generation born between roughly 1955 and 1965 and the initial "access cost" to get the driving license for the young people that may want to start the job.

mmarq 4y ago
> It is not the UK only, here in Italy there was an entrepreneur (in logistics/transports) who was not finding drivers that pointed out how (for a number of reasons, possibly all of them right) to get nowadays a truck driving license (for TIRs) is very costly (both in terms of time and of money, if I recall correctly something like 6,000-10,000 Euro) and there was the issue on how he could pay in advance the costs but there was apparently no legal way to recover them (by keeping a part of the monthly pay of the worker over a "fair" period, I seem to remember 2 years), as it had happened to him that as soon as the candidate drivers would get the driving license they would resign and find work in another company. This is peak Italian entrepreneurship. This guy invested some money in training and then went on TV to play the martyr because he can’t retain employees. Instead of doing the right and most obvious thing, that is paying market salaries, he complaints that indentured labor is no longer legal.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  I didn't see him on TV, I read an article on a newspaper about the issue, I dont' think that there was anyone playing martyr, nor any intention for indentured labor or similar, it was - as I read it at the time - simply a rant about the scarcity of qualified drivers and the difficulties in hiring new workers (unqualified) and assist them in getting the license, as doing that would become a too large investment for the firm, and asked (this is actually italian entrpreneurship) for some form of assistance by the state. At least in the interview he stated that the people would be paid the national contract wage, roughly 3,000 Euro/month net, which is "market salary". Here is the online article (the one on the actual newspaper was longer and more detailed AFAICR): https://www.corriere.it/economia/lavoro/21_agosto_11/cerco-60-autisti-camion-3000-euro-mese-non-li-trovo-b57347be-fa0c-11eb-8ca9-234c5a5d119d.shtml https://www.corriere.it/economia/lavoro/21_agosto_11/cerco-6... (not too bad in Google translate).
  - mmarq 4y ago
    In the article it says that he’s not going to pay for the driving license, so the part where he says he’d like to keep the worker for 2 years is missing (I was referring to that as indentured labor). Said that, if you can’t find workers, you are not paying the market clearing salary. Maybe now you have to offer 4K€ for 4 days of work. Proposing that the state pays for these licences is not that insane, it may address a market failure. Many countries, Italy included, have similar programs to help the unemployed find a job.
    - jaclaz 4y ago
      I believe you are oversimplifying the issues. >Said that, if you can’t find workers, you are not paying the market clearing salary. Maybe now you have to offer 4K€ for 4 days of work. Yes, and 5K€ would be even better, too bad that on the other side (the firm income) prices are de facto capped, so it is not possible to pay more the workers, margins in this field are really thin. And 3K€/month net is already a rather high salary in Italy. >Proposing that the state pays for these licences is not that insane, it may address a market failure. Many countries, Italy included, have similar programs to help the unemployed find a job. Cannot say how much they are effective in other countries, but I can tell you that in Italy these programs in practice rarely succeed in making even a dent in unemployment numbers, for a number of reasons.