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The Netherlands will be especially impacted by this. We refused actual legalization for many reasons, many of which will be invalidated by Germany decriminalizi

The Netherlands will be especially impacted by this. We refused actual legalization for many reasons, many of which will be invalidated by Germany decriminalizing. Our current stance on weed is so confusing that it's hard to explain to any foreigner, but strictly speaking weed isn't legal and not even decriminalized... But yes, Amsterdam is in The Netherlands.

danielbln 4y ago
Nitpick: Germany is poised to legalize and not just decriminialize, which is an important distinction.
- donkeyd 4y ago
  No problem. I read another comment that said it would not be legalized. But now that I read the responses to that comment I feel like I probably shouldn't have taken that comment as the truth.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  Germany is poised to tax that shit. Finally.
- runeks 4y ago
  If it’s an important distinction then it’s not a nitpick :-)
htkibar 4y ago
In all fairness, it isn't like we want people to come as tourists here to smoke weed or something so should be fine no? For anyone else wanting to know more about the Dutch policy on this: https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-regarding-soft-drugs-and-coffee-shops https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-reg...
- tommit 4y ago
  Quick question for our Dutch neighbors: why not? I never understood why it is exactly that The Netherlands were kind of against the drug tourism. I mean, I'm sure your average pot head tourist is not that much trouble and leaves quite a bit of money, no? I studied in The Netherlands and always thought I'd be proud as a country to be that "progressive" in a sense -- especially once it became clear that other countries were following.
  - grapeskin 4y ago
    Countries with loads of tourists have loads of trouble with them. Those problems are amplified when you’re flooded with college kids who are away from home for the first time and getting high for only the first or second time of their life. I guess there was enough trouble that some people thought it was worth trying to cut back on. Money isn’t everything
    - scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
      The Dutch also have an incredibly advanced information/agriculture/tech/corp economy. I'm no expert on this but I'm pretty sure that the money from the tourism might not be as much to the Dutch as we would like to think.
  - Dobbs 4y ago
    Amsterdam has lots of issues with tourists that fly in, spend a few days, cause a lot of problems, do a lot of drugs, visit one or two high profile tourist destianations (which puts an oversized burden on these few places), and then fly out. Instead Amsterdam wants to court tourists who fly in, spend a week or two, go to many tourist destinations, spend a bit more money at many locations. It spreads it around the city/country, does less wear and tear to a few places, and makes the locals lives much nicer.
  - flycaliguy 4y ago
    Personally, in 2010 I definitely walked across 8 lanes of traffic the wrong way on my first day in town… Must have been an actual highway. I have a vivid memory of cars revving their engine at me. In Canada the crossing signs with a countdown display how much time you have left to cross not how long the wait will be.
- donkeyd 4y ago
  Well, it's not about that. It's that one of the reasons the Netherlands never legalized is that the rest of Europe didn't. So we were afraid that we'd become a place where international criminals come to produce massive amounts of weed legally to then export it illegally. When countries surrounding us start legalizing, we have no reason not to. Since growing weed is purely done by criminals right now, we're also afraid to legalize because legal weed farms might get issues with criminal involvement or threat because the criminals lose a huge income source. If we don't legalize however when Germany does, we'll then get a bunch of trafficking from Germany to the Netherlands. We're in a bit of a pickle and it'll be interesting to see what our Christian/Liberal/Progressive government will come up with. I expect them to just ignore it and continue by doing pretty much nothing until it's a real problem.
  - tcmart14 4y ago
    > Since growing weed is purely done by criminals right now, we're also afraid to legalize because legal weed farms might get issues with criminal involvement or threat because the criminals lose a huge income source. If we don't legalize however when Germany does, we'll then get a bunch of trafficking from Germany to the Netherlands. Oregon legalized weed and this hasn't been a huge problem. But if people fear it is, the solution to this is simple. Make it easy to become a legal grower.
    - cronix 4y ago
      I'm in Oregon as well. There have been many news stories in Southern Oregon about the large cartel operations that are bigger than before legalization, because now they more or less blend in with the legal growers. They also involved trafficked humans to work there with passports withheld. Some of the increase has been attributed to California's drought, so they're moving north to greener pastures, so to speak. The illegal growing is more than twice as much as licensed growing. Twice. I don't know how you can say there is no problem. > The $2.78 billion in illegal marijuana found in Southern Oregon dwarfs the nearly $1.2 billion in legal marijuana sold at shops in the entire state in 2021. > Behind the scenes, immigrant workers may face threats of violent retaliation against their relatives in Mexico if they complain about living and working conditions at illegal sites, or the withholding of wages. > “The cartels will kill their family back in Mexico. They know there is a realistic likelihood that would happen,” Barden said. https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts-in-southern-oregon-exceed-2-7-billion/ https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts... > “We’ve heard of the threat of harm to your family if you don’t go with us”, Daniel said. “And then they are transported up to the location. From what we are understanding, these workers are not paid until the end of the year when the shipment goes out and the money is brought in. There’s not like a weekly payroll going on here.” > Sixteen other state and federal agencies joined the Josephine County Sheriff’s department in the raid, including the Department of Homeland Security. The operation included more than 1,300 acres of property as well as 200 workers. > Officials found workers living in squalid conditions, which included sleeping on cardboard mats or inside tends. Workers denying that they had been trafficked, Daniel said. The Department of Homeland Security offered victim services to the workers, but all turned them down, according to Daniel. This could be for several reasons, including fear of their employers or immigration authorities. https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon-marijuana-farm-under-investigation-for-human-trafficking-forced-labor.html https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon... > Sergeant Cliff Barden, of the Oregon State Police Basin Interagency Narcotics Enforcement Team (BINET), said illegal grows in Klamath County are clearly linked to drug cartels. He said the cartel’s strategy in the area is to overwhelm local agencies and resources with the sheer volume of production, ensuring that much of the operation will go unnoticed and ultimate generating immense profits. > “They are intentionally trying to overwhelm the system,” Barden said. “And that is why it is so difficult.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illegal-marijuana-grows-in-southern-oregon-and-mexican-cartels/ar-AAPZ1tK https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illega...
saiya-jin 4y ago
I sure hope this will come ASAP. As much as I like to stroll through Amsterdam and around, after 10+ visits, often quite long with various people that were/are important in my life, I wish to just buy stuff while experiencing other places and cultures. It is expensive place with miserable weather. Dutch ladies are always a nice sight though. Plus those drunken crowds of mostly young British around Red light district won't be missed by me.
akhmatova 4y ago
Not sure what you mean by "not even decriminalized". If the basic status of cannabis in the NL as I understand it -- it's technical illegal, but obviously tolerated (and penalties are never enforced unless you really step out of line) -- then what other word would you use? Leg uit alstublieft.
jlg23 4y ago
I sincerely hope so because I get the pain a lot of Dutch people felt: Even as a liberal drug policy activist (formerly on EU level) I despised the smoking tourism: People not knowing their dose who will randomly fall in front of your bicycle or generally stumble across streets without being able to look left or right. I only fell in love with Amsterdam again after a drug policy meeting late January one year: Without hordes of stoned tourists Amsterdam was a really pleasant experience - even in coffeeshops that usually told you to "smoke quickly and fsck off!" one could sit quietly, chat with friends and instead of the "fsck off" the waiters come and ask whether one would like to have another coffee.
nostromo 4y ago
This sounds like the confusing US laws. Cannabis is illegal (very illegal) nationally. But several states decided to stop prosecuting these crimes, and the states do most of the policing in the US - so it’s all but legal in many states. I wish there was a legal standard whereby if the state stops prosecuting a law, the law automatically can be invalidated by a court. We have lots of things that are illegal that are only used by prosecutors when they want to throw the book at someone.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  > the law automatically can be invalidated by a court. There are three parts to the law: 1. The legislature must draft the law 2. The executives must enforce the law. 3. The judicial must punish for breaking the law. If (2) never happens, then it never gets to (3). And courts can "invalidate" a law: jury nullification.
  - Kerbonut 4y ago
    SCOTUS ought to invalidate the DEA and drug scheduling considering they’re overturning other perceived federal overreaches.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      Did the DEA create the schedules? Or did the Congress? I thought it was a latter.
      - int_19h 4y ago
        Congress created them originally, but they gave DEA very wide authority to change them. (This is also why federal drug legalization could, in theory, be achieved through executive order, if Dems had the spine for that.)
        Kerbonut 4y ago
        Thanks didn’t know it was actually congress. Makes more sense to me now. But does congress even have authority to regulate that? Does it fall under unenumerated rights that fall to the people? I guess I remember hearing they regulate it under interstate commerce?
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
The Netherlands as I'm sorry to say has been in maintenance mode for the last 15 years. Our glorious leaders governing style has been to do as little as possible to avoid elections and let future generations solve things.
wlecometo 4y ago
This is one of those confusing things as immigrant in NL, on one side the toleration allows all those weekend smokers tourism, especially in amsterdam and it helps the economy (well, debatable) but then the whole coffee shop activity (you can sell but you can't buy) is clearly borderline illegal and by legalizing it could help put under the sun a lots of underground world. and maybe hit on those narco gangs which looks like are behind de Vries assassination

danielbln 4y ago

Nitpick: Germany is poised to legalize and not just decriminialize, which is an important distinction.

donkeyd 4y ago
No problem. I read another comment that said it would not be legalized. But now that I read the responses to that comment I feel like I probably shouldn't have taken that comment as the truth.
dr_dshiv 4y ago
Germany is poised to tax that shit. Finally.
runeks 4y ago
If it’s an important distinction then it’s not a nitpick :-)

htkibar 4y ago

In all fairness, it isn't like we want people to come as tourists here to smoke weed or something so should be fine no? For anyone else wanting to know more about the Dutch policy on this: https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-regarding-soft-drugs-and-coffee-shops https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/toleration-policy-reg...

tommit 4y ago
Quick question for our Dutch neighbors: why not? I never understood why it is exactly that The Netherlands were kind of against the drug tourism. I mean, I'm sure your average pot head tourist is not that much trouble and leaves quite a bit of money, no? I studied in The Netherlands and always thought I'd be proud as a country to be that "progressive" in a sense -- especially once it became clear that other countries were following.
- grapeskin 4y ago
  Countries with loads of tourists have loads of trouble with them. Those problems are amplified when you’re flooded with college kids who are away from home for the first time and getting high for only the first or second time of their life. I guess there was enough trouble that some people thought it was worth trying to cut back on. Money isn’t everything
  - scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
    The Dutch also have an incredibly advanced information/agriculture/tech/corp economy. I'm no expert on this but I'm pretty sure that the money from the tourism might not be as much to the Dutch as we would like to think.
- Dobbs 4y ago
  Amsterdam has lots of issues with tourists that fly in, spend a few days, cause a lot of problems, do a lot of drugs, visit one or two high profile tourist destianations (which puts an oversized burden on these few places), and then fly out. Instead Amsterdam wants to court tourists who fly in, spend a week or two, go to many tourist destinations, spend a bit more money at many locations. It spreads it around the city/country, does less wear and tear to a few places, and makes the locals lives much nicer.
- flycaliguy 4y ago
  Personally, in 2010 I definitely walked across 8 lanes of traffic the wrong way on my first day in town… Must have been an actual highway. I have a vivid memory of cars revving their engine at me. In Canada the crossing signs with a countdown display how much time you have left to cross not how long the wait will be.
donkeyd 4y ago
Well, it's not about that. It's that one of the reasons the Netherlands never legalized is that the rest of Europe didn't. So we were afraid that we'd become a place where international criminals come to produce massive amounts of weed legally to then export it illegally. When countries surrounding us start legalizing, we have no reason not to. Since growing weed is purely done by criminals right now, we're also afraid to legalize because legal weed farms might get issues with criminal involvement or threat because the criminals lose a huge income source. If we don't legalize however when Germany does, we'll then get a bunch of trafficking from Germany to the Netherlands. We're in a bit of a pickle and it'll be interesting to see what our Christian/Liberal/Progressive government will come up with. I expect them to just ignore it and continue by doing pretty much nothing until it's a real problem.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  > Since growing weed is purely done by criminals right now, we're also afraid to legalize because legal weed farms might get issues with criminal involvement or threat because the criminals lose a huge income source. If we don't legalize however when Germany does, we'll then get a bunch of trafficking from Germany to the Netherlands. Oregon legalized weed and this hasn't been a huge problem. But if people fear it is, the solution to this is simple. Make it easy to become a legal grower.
  - cronix 4y ago
    I'm in Oregon as well. There have been many news stories in Southern Oregon about the large cartel operations that are bigger than before legalization, because now they more or less blend in with the legal growers. They also involved trafficked humans to work there with passports withheld. Some of the increase has been attributed to California's drought, so they're moving north to greener pastures, so to speak. The illegal growing is more than twice as much as licensed growing. Twice. I don't know how you can say there is no problem. > The $2.78 billion in illegal marijuana found in Southern Oregon dwarfs the nearly $1.2 billion in legal marijuana sold at shops in the entire state in 2021. > Behind the scenes, immigrant workers may face threats of violent retaliation against their relatives in Mexico if they complain about living and working conditions at illegal sites, or the withholding of wages. > “The cartels will kill their family back in Mexico. They know there is a realistic likelihood that would happen,” Barden said. https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts-in-southern-oregon-exceed-2-7-billion/ https://www.mailtribune.com/top-stories/2022/01/22/pot-busts... > “We’ve heard of the threat of harm to your family if you don’t go with us”, Daniel said. “And then they are transported up to the location. From what we are understanding, these workers are not paid until the end of the year when the shipment goes out and the money is brought in. There’s not like a weekly payroll going on here.” > Sixteen other state and federal agencies joined the Josephine County Sheriff’s department in the raid, including the Department of Homeland Security. The operation included more than 1,300 acres of property as well as 200 workers. > Officials found workers living in squalid conditions, which included sleeping on cardboard mats or inside tends. Workers denying that they had been trafficked, Daniel said. The Department of Homeland Security offered victim services to the workers, but all turned them down, according to Daniel. This could be for several reasons, including fear of their employers or immigration authorities. https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon-marijuana-farm-under-investigation-for-human-trafficking-forced-labor.html https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2021/08/southern-oregon... > Sergeant Cliff Barden, of the Oregon State Police Basin Interagency Narcotics Enforcement Team (BINET), said illegal grows in Klamath County are clearly linked to drug cartels. He said the cartel’s strategy in the area is to overwhelm local agencies and resources with the sheer volume of production, ensuring that much of the operation will go unnoticed and ultimate generating immense profits. > “They are intentionally trying to overwhelm the system,” Barden said. “And that is why it is so difficult.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illegal-marijuana-grows-in-southern-oregon-and-mexican-cartels/ar-AAPZ1tK https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/clear-links-between-illega...

saiya-jin 4y ago

I sure hope this will come ASAP. As much as I like to stroll through Amsterdam and around, after 10+ visits, often quite long with various people that were/are important in my life, I wish to just buy stuff while experiencing other places and cultures. It is expensive place with miserable weather. Dutch ladies are always a nice sight though. Plus those drunken crowds of mostly young British around Red light district won't be missed by me.

akhmatova 4y ago

Not sure what you mean by "not even decriminalized". If the basic status of cannabis in the NL as I understand it -- it's technical illegal, but obviously tolerated (and penalties are never enforced unless you really step out of line) -- then what other word would you use? Leg uit alstublieft.

jlg23 4y ago

I sincerely hope so because I get the pain a lot of Dutch people felt: Even as a liberal drug policy activist (formerly on EU level) I despised the smoking tourism: People not knowing their dose who will randomly fall in front of your bicycle or generally stumble across streets without being able to look left or right. I only fell in love with Amsterdam again after a drug policy meeting late January one year: Without hordes of stoned tourists Amsterdam was a really pleasant experience - even in coffeeshops that usually told you to "smoke quickly and fsck off!" one could sit quietly, chat with friends and instead of the "fsck off" the waiters come and ask whether one would like to have another coffee.

nostromo 4y ago

This sounds like the confusing US laws. Cannabis is illegal (very illegal) nationally. But several states decided to stop prosecuting these crimes, and the states do most of the policing in the US - so it’s all but legal in many states. I wish there was a legal standard whereby if the state stops prosecuting a law, the law automatically can be invalidated by a court. We have lots of things that are illegal that are only used by prosecutors when they want to throw the book at someone.

withinboredom 4y ago
> the law automatically can be invalidated by a court. There are three parts to the law: 1. The legislature must draft the law 2. The executives must enforce the law. 3. The judicial must punish for breaking the law. If (2) never happens, then it never gets to (3). And courts can "invalidate" a law: jury nullification.
- Kerbonut 4y ago
  SCOTUS ought to invalidate the DEA and drug scheduling considering they’re overturning other perceived federal overreaches.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    Did the DEA create the schedules? Or did the Congress? I thought it was a latter.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      Congress created them originally, but they gave DEA very wide authority to change them. (This is also why federal drug legalization could, in theory, be achieved through executive order, if Dems had the spine for that.)
      - Kerbonut 4y ago
        Thanks didn’t know it was actually congress. Makes more sense to me now. But does congress even have authority to regulate that? Does it fall under unenumerated rights that fall to the people? I guess I remember hearing they regulate it under interstate commerce?

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

The Netherlands as I'm sorry to say has been in maintenance mode for the last 15 years. Our glorious leaders governing style has been to do as little as possible to avoid elections and let future generations solve things.

wlecometo 4y ago

This is one of those confusing things as immigrant in NL, on one side the toleration allows all those weekend smokers tourism, especially in amsterdam and it helps the economy (well, debatable) but then the whole coffee shop activity (you can sell but you can't buy) is clearly borderline illegal and by legalizing it could help put under the sun a lots of underground world. and maybe hit on those narco gangs which looks like are behind de Vries assassination