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>The pineaple-pizza-thingy seems to be mostly a joke, for example. Tell me you haven't visited Italy/don't know any Italians well, without telling me you haven

>The pineaple-pizza-thingy seems to be mostly a joke, for example. Tell me you haven't visited Italy/don't know any Italians well, without telling me you haven't been to Italy.

FooHentai 4y ago
Something I believe is that persistent satire and sincere belief are indistinguishable in many settings, and that persistent application of satire tends to cultivate sincere belief in the same thing as the idea spreads around. Not that I think Italians look down on Hawaiian pizza as a result of satire, that's more that Italians often see a national dish that's been heavily evolved overseas in a negative light, and Hawaiian pizza is the shining example of it to be seized upon. Chicago Deep Dish being another. But online it's definitely an issue - Ironic shit-posting of dumb things eventually leads to areas chock full of people with those exact beliefs for real. That's how meme magic works. Meme something, no matter how dumb, persistently enough, and it'll enter the collective conscious as a sincerely held belief.
- rascul 4y ago
  > Hawaiian pizza I've always found that name amusing. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_pizza : > Sam Panopoulos, a Greek-born Canadian, created the first Hawaiian pizza at the Satellite Restaurant in Chatham, Ontario, Canada in 1962. Inspired in part by his experience preparing Chinese dishes which commonly mix sweet and savory flavours, Panopoulos experimented with adding pineapple, ham, bacon, and other toppings. These additions were not initially very popular. > The addition of pineapple to the traditional mix of tomato sauce and cheese, along with either ham or bacon, later became popular locally and eventually became a staple offering of pizzerias on a global scale. The name of this creation is, in fact, actually not directly inspired by the U.S. state of Hawaii at all; Panopoulos chose the name Hawaiian after the brand of canned pineapple they were using at the time.
  - FooHentai 4y ago
    Hah, that's great. Hawaiian pizza always made sense to me since I grew up in the UK in the eighties, where pork/gammon with canned pineapple rings was an ordinary evening meal (bear in mind, this was close to the era of Salmon Mousse, many culinary crimes were committed around that time). I guess the association between pineapple and Hawaii is in and of itself kinda odd too, since I think they're native to South America.
    - nikau 4y ago
      Hawaiian pizza was probably the most popular pizza in Australia in the 80s also. Even though I'm a bit of a pizza snob I still enjoy a Hawaiian pizza occasionally, somehow the combination of trashy shredded processed ham and pineapple just works well.
      - FooHentai 4y ago
        Try sprinkling some chili flakes on top. I didn't expect it to be good but it's amazing.
  - sybercecurity 4y ago
    There are lots of weird stories behind famous dishes. Like the Pu Pu Platter that is seen in American Chinese restaurants. The version everyone knows comes from Trader Vic's, which basically had (Americanized) Cantonese food like char siu and spring rolls with vaguely Pacific islander names. Then it started appearing in American Chinese restaurants.
jfengel 4y ago
I have been to Italy, a fair bit, and as far as I can tell their attitude is "pizza is a flatbread that you use to stretch out whatever other ingredients you have on hand". There are certainly regional traditions, and obviously pineapple isn't any of them, but I don't see why they'd object to you putting whatever the hell you want on your pizza. Caveat: I haven't been south of Rome, and I gather that there may be more pizza grumpiness further south.
- leoedin 4y ago
  Having worked closely with Italians from all over Italy, living in London - every one of them I spoke to felt passionately about food being a specific way. Nothing would get my Italian colleagues more riled up over lunch than a British interpretation of an Italian classic dish. There's clearly a very strong traditionalist food culture in Italy.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  JFYI: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28327893 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28327893
rr888 4y ago
> Tell me you haven't visited Italy/don't know any Italians well, without telling me you haven't been to Italy. Seriously who cares what Italians think, are you that neurotic? Hawaiian pizza is great.
frosted-flakes 4y ago
At this point American pizza isn't an Italian food, it's American/global. No one thinks "pizza" when you say, "lets's get some Italian".
- samatman 4y ago
  In the more populous parts of America, Italian pizza is one of six or seven varieties one can find, generally (though not on the West Coast) dominated by the local take. I've had pizza margherita in Italy, and at least three large US cities: the one in Rome was better, but frankly, that's probably because I was in Rome when I ate it. It was the same sort of pizza you get from Italian pizza joints in the States.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    Once said that not necessarily all pizza in Italy is good, when it is good it is simply another thing from "international" pizza, I believe mainly because of the ingredients used that - generally speaking - are simply not available (at the same level of freshness/taste) outside Italy and in some cases not even everywhere in Italy. A typical example is "mozzarella di bufala" that is easily available all over Italy, but if/when you taste the fresh one in the area around Caserta and Naples you will understand how it is different.
    - samatman 4y ago
      I'm sure I didn't have the best possible Italian pizza, it was good but hardly my most memorable meal in my (alas, quite brief) time in Italy. All I'm saying is that a pizza margherita at an 'Italian style pizza joint' in the States is the same recipe, wood-fired oven, buffalo mozzarella, and so on. One would need to pay extra for the bufala, but the low-moisture cheese we Americans call 'mozzarella' is never used, it would be fresh ball mozarella. Whereas a good New York slice can't be had in Italy for love nor money! (I suspect this isn't actually true; I found a Mission burrito in Guanajuato Mexico, good food has a way of getting around). Now, you can say that's like trying to find a General Tso's Chicken in Hong Kong, but I enjoy that dish as well.
barkingcat 4y ago
In fact Italian pizza stores love selling pineapple pizza to tourists! Whatever gets a euro from a tourist is whatever they will sell. When I was in Italy, all the pizza shops sold pineapple pizza, for a slightly higher price, cause it sells that well to North Americans.

>The pineaple-pizza-thingy seems to be mostly a joke, for example. Tell me you haven't visited Italy/don't know any Italians well, without telling me you haven't been to Italy.

FooHentai 4y ago

Something I believe is that persistent satire and sincere belief are indistinguishable in many settings, and that persistent application of satire tends to cultivate sincere belief in the same thing as the idea spreads around. Not that I think Italians look down on Hawaiian pizza as a result of satire, that's more that Italians often see a national dish that's been heavily evolved overseas in a negative light, and Hawaiian pizza is the shining example of it to be seized upon. Chicago Deep Dish being another. But online it's definitely an issue - Ironic shit-posting of dumb things eventually leads to areas chock full of people with those exact beliefs for real. That's how meme magic works. Meme something, no matter how dumb, persistently enough, and it'll enter the collective conscious as a sincerely held belief.

rascul 4y ago
> Hawaiian pizza I've always found that name amusing. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_pizza : > Sam Panopoulos, a Greek-born Canadian, created the first Hawaiian pizza at the Satellite Restaurant in Chatham, Ontario, Canada in 1962. Inspired in part by his experience preparing Chinese dishes which commonly mix sweet and savory flavours, Panopoulos experimented with adding pineapple, ham, bacon, and other toppings. These additions were not initially very popular. > The addition of pineapple to the traditional mix of tomato sauce and cheese, along with either ham or bacon, later became popular locally and eventually became a staple offering of pizzerias on a global scale. The name of this creation is, in fact, actually not directly inspired by the U.S. state of Hawaii at all; Panopoulos chose the name Hawaiian after the brand of canned pineapple they were using at the time.
- FooHentai 4y ago
  Hah, that's great. Hawaiian pizza always made sense to me since I grew up in the UK in the eighties, where pork/gammon with canned pineapple rings was an ordinary evening meal (bear in mind, this was close to the era of Salmon Mousse, many culinary crimes were committed around that time). I guess the association between pineapple and Hawaii is in and of itself kinda odd too, since I think they're native to South America.
  - nikau 4y ago
    Hawaiian pizza was probably the most popular pizza in Australia in the 80s also. Even though I'm a bit of a pizza snob I still enjoy a Hawaiian pizza occasionally, somehow the combination of trashy shredded processed ham and pineapple just works well.
    - FooHentai 4y ago
      Try sprinkling some chili flakes on top. I didn't expect it to be good but it's amazing.
- sybercecurity 4y ago
  There are lots of weird stories behind famous dishes. Like the Pu Pu Platter that is seen in American Chinese restaurants. The version everyone knows comes from Trader Vic's, which basically had (Americanized) Cantonese food like char siu and spring rolls with vaguely Pacific islander names. Then it started appearing in American Chinese restaurants.

jfengel 4y ago

I have been to Italy, a fair bit, and as far as I can tell their attitude is "pizza is a flatbread that you use to stretch out whatever other ingredients you have on hand". There are certainly regional traditions, and obviously pineapple isn't any of them, but I don't see why they'd object to you putting whatever the hell you want on your pizza. Caveat: I haven't been south of Rome, and I gather that there may be more pizza grumpiness further south.

leoedin 4y ago
Having worked closely with Italians from all over Italy, living in London - every one of them I spoke to felt passionately about food being a specific way. Nothing would get my Italian colleagues more riled up over lunch than a British interpretation of an Italian classic dish. There's clearly a very strong traditionalist food culture in Italy.
jaclaz 4y ago
JFYI: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28327893 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28327893

rr888 4y ago

> Tell me you haven't visited Italy/don't know any Italians well, without telling me you haven't been to Italy. Seriously who cares what Italians think, are you that neurotic? Hawaiian pizza is great.

frosted-flakes 4y ago

At this point American pizza isn't an Italian food, it's American/global. No one thinks "pizza" when you say, "lets's get some Italian".

samatman 4y ago
In the more populous parts of America, Italian pizza is one of six or seven varieties one can find, generally (though not on the West Coast) dominated by the local take. I've had pizza margherita in Italy, and at least three large US cities: the one in Rome was better, but frankly, that's probably because I was in Rome when I ate it. It was the same sort of pizza you get from Italian pizza joints in the States.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  Once said that not necessarily all pizza in Italy is good, when it is good it is simply another thing from "international" pizza, I believe mainly because of the ingredients used that - generally speaking - are simply not available (at the same level of freshness/taste) outside Italy and in some cases not even everywhere in Italy. A typical example is "mozzarella di bufala" that is easily available all over Italy, but if/when you taste the fresh one in the area around Caserta and Naples you will understand how it is different.
  - samatman 4y ago
    I'm sure I didn't have the best possible Italian pizza, it was good but hardly my most memorable meal in my (alas, quite brief) time in Italy. All I'm saying is that a pizza margherita at an 'Italian style pizza joint' in the States is the same recipe, wood-fired oven, buffalo mozzarella, and so on. One would need to pay extra for the bufala, but the low-moisture cheese we Americans call 'mozzarella' is never used, it would be fresh ball mozarella. Whereas a good New York slice can't be had in Italy for love nor money! (I suspect this isn't actually true; I found a Mission burrito in Guanajuato Mexico, good food has a way of getting around). Now, you can say that's like trying to find a General Tso's Chicken in Hong Kong, but I enjoy that dish as well.

barkingcat 4y ago

In fact Italian pizza stores love selling pineapple pizza to tourists! Whatever gets a euro from a tourist is whatever they will sell. When I was in Italy, all the pizza shops sold pineapple pizza, for a slightly higher price, cause it sells that well to North Americans.