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> Steelmanning means that you ignore the argument your interlocuter makes, in favour of the argument you think they should have made. It runs diametrically coun

> Steelmanning means that you ignore the argument your interlocuter makes, in favour of the argument you think they should have made. It runs diametrically counter to trying to 'meaningfully connect with what others are saying'. That's not quite steelmanning. Steelmanning means that you rephrase the argument your interlocuter makes, with your own words, until they agree that it's the same or close enough. That's what creates the connection. The agreement is the important distinction and what creates the connection. Even if you disagree, at least there is a level of respect that comes from hearing the person out and not misrepresenting their point. Your definition is quite close but is skipping that last step that makes all the difference.

feintruled 4y ago
Thanks for the clarification. I recently read of steelmanning too by coincidence and have been fascinated with how it might work in practice. I think it also means you should assume good faith too, right? So if someone says they are anti-abortion but pro-death penalty (for example) you don't jump on the hypocrisy as you see it but say "I see, so for you there is some material difference between the life of an unborn child and the life of a convict." When put this way it is easy to see where the other person's rationale is coming from. I guess it like the Socractic method (except a little less confrontational) in which you restate the opponents statements in terms they can agree with, then follow up with questions exploring that until you trap them in a contradiction even they are forced to recognise.
- feet 4y ago
  Things in the realm of anti abortion and pro death penalty break down when you get down to the root of things, which is free will and innocence of the unborn soul From my understanding that's what is behind both of these ideologies, and both of those things are 100% made up fiction There is literally no evidence for an immaterial soul and there is actually evidence that free will is an illusion, but the people who believe things things have their beliefs rooted in religion
  - NateEag 4y ago
    > Things in the realm of anti abortion and pro death penalty break down when you get down to the root of things, which is free will and innocence of the unborn soul ...no? The essential point of steelmanning is understanding your opponent's perspective, perhaps even finding a better argument for it than they have, even if you disagree with them. It's perfectly possible to do that even if you think their position is nonsense. Sometimes you may even find that your perception of their arguments and ideas is incorrect. > There is literally no evidence for an immaterial soul There's no hard evidence, but there are things that are, let's say, weird. The hard problem of consciousness is one, and the steady trickle of reports of veridical observations from medical staff treating unconscious NDE patients is another. For that matter, NDEs themselves are odd in absentia the supernatural. I don't expect people to grant souls or the supernatural based on those things, but they're certainly observed phenomena that some people interpret as evidence for those things. > there is actually evidence that free will is an illusion If you're referring to Libet's analysis of the Bereitschaftspotential experiments, there has been some acceptance in the past few years that this paper shows he misinterpreted the data: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1210467109 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1210467109 Popular summary of the debate in The Atlantic: https://archive.ph/SHH0p https://archive.ph/SHH0p If you're referring to other evidence, I'd love to know what it is.
    - feet 4y ago
      Consciousness is the experience if processing information, there is no reason to believe its anything more than that There are also other studies besides the Libet ones, more recent ones using things like fMRI and in vivo electrophysiology in awake human patients. If we think about how neurons and their networks function, there isn't a mechanism in the realm of biophysics that allows for nondeterminism. That alone precludes the possibility of what people classically think of as free will. I've had discussions with other neuroscientists about this and they came to the same conclusion. Just because something seems "weird" doesn't actually mean anything and its likely the person's perception of the situation that instills that feeling. Near death experiences are entirely subjective, again its perception and information processing. The brain is great at connecting concepts and generating ideas even while we're unconscious. Its not like we stop processing sensory information when we aren't active. As someone who studies behavioral neuroscience, I would never use an NDE itself as evidence of anything besides the fact that it is a phenomena that happens sometimes There is a decent overview on wikipedia, they do discuss criticisms as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will As a side note, I don't think that paper on pnas concludes what you think it does. They state that a stochastic model could account for the buildup, in reality the stochastic model is simulating the chaotic environment of biochemistry. That environment is still deterministic and we absolutely could predict the entire system if we are able to simulate all of the variables. Neurons are complex, but no matter how you slice it they are still a deterministic system
- watwut 4y ago
  > I see, so for you there is some material difference between the life of an unborn child and the life of a convict. Pro abortion position is that unborn fetus is not a child. You are conceding pretty large point when you are framing it like this.
  - feintruled 4y ago
    Well, that's what they think isn't it? That's what I understand the steelmanning technique to be. Frame the argument as best you can in the way they see it, then you discover the assumptions that led them to their conclusion.
    - watwut 4y ago
      I know that assumption. What I object to is that OP uncriticslly accepts that assumption as true. His comment is literally making reader think equivalence between features and Baby is accepted fact.
  - wl 4y ago
    That's certainly one pro-abortion position, but not the only one. The more general position is that whatever interests a fetus may or may not have to continued life is outweighed by the bodily autonomy interests of the mother in a given scenario. The Violinist Argument is a classic thought experiment that argues even if the continued life in question belongs to fully-grown adult human who happens to be a world-class artist, bodily autonomy still wins.
    - throwawaygal7 4y ago
      Generally, pro life people arent going to find the violinists argument forceful: 1) the violinist is framed as being particularly valuable due to their talent, this is not a shared assumption between the two camps, and even if it was - every baby is a potential violinist. 2) the violinist is not offspring, and there is no parent-child relationship 3) extraordinary means were and are required to maintain the violinist, this is unlike a pregnancy - where extraordinary means are required to end it.

feintruled 4y ago

Thanks for the clarification. I recently read of steelmanning too by coincidence and have been fascinated with how it might work in practice. I think it also means you should assume good faith too, right? So if someone says they are anti-abortion but pro-death penalty (for example) you don't jump on the hypocrisy as you see it but say "I see, so for you there is some material difference between the life of an unborn child and the life of a convict." When put this way it is easy to see where the other person's rationale is coming from. I guess it like the Socractic method (except a little less confrontational) in which you restate the opponents statements in terms they can agree with, then follow up with questions exploring that until you trap them in a contradiction even they are forced to recognise.

feet 4y ago
Things in the realm of anti abortion and pro death penalty break down when you get down to the root of things, which is free will and innocence of the unborn soul From my understanding that's what is behind both of these ideologies, and both of those things are 100% made up fiction There is literally no evidence for an immaterial soul and there is actually evidence that free will is an illusion, but the people who believe things things have their beliefs rooted in religion
- NateEag 4y ago
  > Things in the realm of anti abortion and pro death penalty break down when you get down to the root of things, which is free will and innocence of the unborn soul ...no? The essential point of steelmanning is understanding your opponent's perspective, perhaps even finding a better argument for it than they have, even if you disagree with them. It's perfectly possible to do that even if you think their position is nonsense. Sometimes you may even find that your perception of their arguments and ideas is incorrect. > There is literally no evidence for an immaterial soul There's no hard evidence, but there are things that are, let's say, weird. The hard problem of consciousness is one, and the steady trickle of reports of veridical observations from medical staff treating unconscious NDE patients is another. For that matter, NDEs themselves are odd in absentia the supernatural. I don't expect people to grant souls or the supernatural based on those things, but they're certainly observed phenomena that some people interpret as evidence for those things. > there is actually evidence that free will is an illusion If you're referring to Libet's analysis of the Bereitschaftspotential experiments, there has been some acceptance in the past few years that this paper shows he misinterpreted the data: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1210467109 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1210467109 Popular summary of the debate in The Atlantic: https://archive.ph/SHH0p https://archive.ph/SHH0p If you're referring to other evidence, I'd love to know what it is.
  - feet 4y ago
    Consciousness is the experience if processing information, there is no reason to believe its anything more than that There are also other studies besides the Libet ones, more recent ones using things like fMRI and in vivo electrophysiology in awake human patients. If we think about how neurons and their networks function, there isn't a mechanism in the realm of biophysics that allows for nondeterminism. That alone precludes the possibility of what people classically think of as free will. I've had discussions with other neuroscientists about this and they came to the same conclusion. Just because something seems "weird" doesn't actually mean anything and its likely the person's perception of the situation that instills that feeling. Near death experiences are entirely subjective, again its perception and information processing. The brain is great at connecting concepts and generating ideas even while we're unconscious. Its not like we stop processing sensory information when we aren't active. As someone who studies behavioral neuroscience, I would never use an NDE itself as evidence of anything besides the fact that it is a phenomena that happens sometimes There is a decent overview on wikipedia, they do discuss criticisms as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will As a side note, I don't think that paper on pnas concludes what you think it does. They state that a stochastic model could account for the buildup, in reality the stochastic model is simulating the chaotic environment of biochemistry. That environment is still deterministic and we absolutely could predict the entire system if we are able to simulate all of the variables. Neurons are complex, but no matter how you slice it they are still a deterministic system
watwut 4y ago
> I see, so for you there is some material difference between the life of an unborn child and the life of a convict. Pro abortion position is that unborn fetus is not a child. You are conceding pretty large point when you are framing it like this.
- feintruled 4y ago
  Well, that's what they think isn't it? That's what I understand the steelmanning technique to be. Frame the argument as best you can in the way they see it, then you discover the assumptions that led them to their conclusion.
  - watwut 4y ago
    I know that assumption. What I object to is that OP uncriticslly accepts that assumption as true. His comment is literally making reader think equivalence between features and Baby is accepted fact.
- wl 4y ago
  That's certainly one pro-abortion position, but not the only one. The more general position is that whatever interests a fetus may or may not have to continued life is outweighed by the bodily autonomy interests of the mother in a given scenario. The Violinist Argument is a classic thought experiment that argues even if the continued life in question belongs to fully-grown adult human who happens to be a world-class artist, bodily autonomy still wins.
  - throwawaygal7 4y ago
    Generally, pro life people arent going to find the violinists argument forceful: 1) the violinist is framed as being particularly valuable due to their talent, this is not a shared assumption between the two camps, and even if it was - every baby is a potential violinist. 2) the violinist is not offspring, and there is no parent-child relationship 3) extraordinary means were and are required to maintain the violinist, this is unlike a pregnancy - where extraordinary means are required to end it.