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>"Part of my hope by raising expectations and having more aggressive goals, and just kind of turning up the heat a little bit, is that I think some of you might

>"Part of my hope by raising expectations and having more aggressive goals, and just kind of turning up the heat a little bit, is that I think some of you might decide that this place isn't for you, and that self-selection is OK with me," he said. This, to me, sounds like he's pressuring people to leave, so that they don't have to fire them, which would involve severance.

cs137 4y ago
Generally, people who get PIP'd don't get severance, even if fired. The real purpose of the PIP process is to grind people down so they make mistakes, costing them what could otherwise be beautiful lawsuits [1], or just stop showing up (which I guess would fall under quitting, since they end up firing themselves, at least bureaucratically speaking). ---- [1] This is surprisingly easy to do in the US. If you post about your termination on social media, this can be construed as "cause after the fact" and make a termination that was in fact unjust or unlawful now legal. The employer's argument becomes that they knew you held malice toward the company ("cause") but couldn't prove it--the social media activity becomes said "proof".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  That may be for more cold blooded companies but most PIPs I've witnessed have gotten severance and actually good packages to boot.
  - aeyes 4y ago
    Agree, I mostly saw: Take this generous amount of money and hand in your resignation or you won't have to come back tomorrow and you get nothing.
    - DisjointedHunt 4y ago
      Take this generous amount of money (1 month pay) and SIGN THIS WAIVER RELEASING US OF ALL FUTURE LIABILITIES is the important part.
      - krallja 4y ago
        also usually anti-badmouthing clauses in both directions. “you may never blog about this experience”
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - bko 4y ago
    Same here. Severance is very cheap in the grand scheme of things. If someone is a poor performer, they're essentially a negative value add. Your default is continuing to pay them a salary, so you may as well agree to continue to do that for a number of weeks and just have them not work. I've seen 2 weeks for every year at the firm as standard
    - rexpop 4y ago
      It's not necessarily about severance; could be keeping unemployment insurance premiums low, too.
      - ac29 4y ago
        Yes, most people dont realize companies can be financially impacted through the unemployment system when they lay someone off even if there are no direct severance payments. An employee who quits isnt eligible for unemployment. (these rules obviously vary by country/state/etc)
- DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
  I have never, at any company, found this to be true.
- williamsmj 4y ago
  > Generally, people who get PIP'd don't get severance, even if fired. Not quite true at Amazon, the most infamous PIP user. You get put on "Focus". If you fail that, you are offered severance or to go on a PIP. True, once you're on the PIP, you're not going to get a severance offer. (This is all according to https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/amazon https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/amazon, which is excerpted by the author here https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1537810787473006593 https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1537810787473006593.)
cyanydeez 4y ago
Not knowing who is worth firing seems like mismanagement to me alongside the obvious " do more work plebs and you'll be safe"
david38 4y ago
I doubt it. You can just slow down and be fired. Severance is a pittance to them. What they are really trying to avoid is laying off the wrong people. Management is really bad at guessing who wants to stay and who wants out. Often, a bunch of “low performers” are riffed. Some are bad, some are just on the wrong team, some are having life complications- birth, death, divorce, etc. It’s really bad PR to fire someone who is a low performer because of a bad pregnancy, grandma died, etc. especially when they call a reporter and show their stellar ratings from previous years. On top of all that, with the rif comes a higher work load. At this time many high performers will quit, which sucks because you just laid off a bunch of people, many of whom were close to these guys in performance. Then the company is at risk of making bad decisions. They they push even harder on those that remain? Do they become pragmatic and cut initiatives they can no longer staff? All moves have risk.
bojangleslover 4y ago
Once you get paid, you and the company are even. Of course one would want as much reasonable employee protection as usual but practical realities dictate that you shouldn't get something for nothing.

cs137 4y ago

Generally, people who get PIP'd don't get severance, even if fired. The real purpose of the PIP process is to grind people down so they make mistakes, costing them what could otherwise be beautiful lawsuits [1], or just stop showing up (which I guess would fall under quitting, since they end up firing themselves, at least bureaucratically speaking). ---- [1] This is surprisingly easy to do in the US. If you post about your termination on social media, this can be construed as "cause after the fact" and make a termination that was in fact unjust or unlawful now legal. The employer's argument becomes that they knew you held malice toward the company ("cause") but couldn't prove it--the social media activity becomes said "proof".

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
That may be for more cold blooded companies but most PIPs I've witnessed have gotten severance and actually good packages to boot.
- aeyes 4y ago
  Agree, I mostly saw: Take this generous amount of money and hand in your resignation or you won't have to come back tomorrow and you get nothing.
  - DisjointedHunt 4y ago
    Take this generous amount of money (1 month pay) and SIGN THIS WAIVER RELEASING US OF ALL FUTURE LIABILITIES is the important part.
    - krallja 4y ago
      also usually anti-badmouthing clauses in both directions. “you may never blog about this experience”
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- bko 4y ago
  Same here. Severance is very cheap in the grand scheme of things. If someone is a poor performer, they're essentially a negative value add. Your default is continuing to pay them a salary, so you may as well agree to continue to do that for a number of weeks and just have them not work. I've seen 2 weeks for every year at the firm as standard
  - rexpop 4y ago
    It's not necessarily about severance; could be keeping unemployment insurance premiums low, too.
    - ac29 4y ago
      Yes, most people dont realize companies can be financially impacted through the unemployment system when they lay someone off even if there are no direct severance payments. An employee who quits isnt eligible for unemployment. (these rules obviously vary by country/state/etc)
DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
I have never, at any company, found this to be true.
williamsmj 4y ago
> Generally, people who get PIP'd don't get severance, even if fired. Not quite true at Amazon, the most infamous PIP user. You get put on "Focus". If you fail that, you are offered severance or to go on a PIP. True, once you're on the PIP, you're not going to get a severance offer. (This is all according to https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/amazon https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/amazon, which is excerpted by the author here https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1537810787473006593 https://twitter.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1537810787473006593.)

cyanydeez 4y ago

Not knowing who is worth firing seems like mismanagement to me alongside the obvious " do more work plebs and you'll be safe"

david38 4y ago

I doubt it. You can just slow down and be fired. Severance is a pittance to them. What they are really trying to avoid is laying off the wrong people. Management is really bad at guessing who wants to stay and who wants out. Often, a bunch of “low performers” are riffed. Some are bad, some are just on the wrong team, some are having life complications- birth, death, divorce, etc. It’s really bad PR to fire someone who is a low performer because of a bad pregnancy, grandma died, etc. especially when they call a reporter and show their stellar ratings from previous years. On top of all that, with the rif comes a higher work load. At this time many high performers will quit, which sucks because you just laid off a bunch of people, many of whom were close to these guys in performance. Then the company is at risk of making bad decisions. They they push even harder on those that remain? Do they become pragmatic and cut initiatives they can no longer staff? All moves have risk.

bojangleslover 4y ago

Once you get paid, you and the company are even. Of course one would want as much reasonable employee protection as usual but practical realities dictate that you shouldn't get something for nothing.