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But you have to give up point to point, of course the overall throughput is better but the individual experience is (perceived) worse. This is why I love the id

But you have to give up point to point, of course the overall throughput is better but the individual experience is (perceived) worse. This is why I love the idea of "public luxury" make sitting on a train or a bus nicer than sitting in a brand new mercedes.

rob_c 4y ago
- planb 4y ago
  Harsh reply for a perfectly valid argument. I'm all for pushing public transport, but in most places of the world it is still more convenient to drive a car for 20 minutes than to walk 5 minutes, jump in a bus for 5 minutes, wait for 10 minutes at a station, jump in a train for 15 minutes, walk 5 minutes, even if you have to drive yourself. And remember we were talking about self-driving cars here.
  - atoav 4y ago
    Where I live the subway is typically faster than the car because of congestion and parking place search. And the bicycle is faster than the subway, because it goes the direct way.
  - yakubin 4y ago
    Also, when you change trams/buses along the way, any delay by a vehicle in the middle of the chain gets compounded instead of just being added to the time of your arrival, since it makes you miss subsequent vehicles. With a car, if you leave 5 minutes later than you should, you should arrive 5 minutes late, not 30. And public transport is so unreliable, the delays are pretty much guaranteed for every trip, so you need to add huge time buffers to all of them if you want to be on time.
  - rob_c 4y ago
atoav 4y ago
Easy: If you have shitty public transport you are gonna have a shitty experience in it. If you have a well funded, well planned and embeded public transport system, you will have a good time. But this costs more than just money — it costs space. And if you are doing it right it also costs you road space (busses and streetcars only make sense of they have their own uninterrupted lanes for the most part).
stavros 4y ago
Eh, most large European cities manage just fine, the car is often the slowest or the least convenient mode.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
That depends how you look at it, though. To my mind, the extra walking distance with public transport is generally a plus, since it serves as a decent baseline of physical activity. Even a small amount of added walking can have a significant health benefit. If you add carrying groceries and walking uphill to that the effect quickly adds up. If I had a car or (god forbid) a personal driver I'm willing to bet I'd be significantly heavier and in worse shape, and consequently all the more unhappy in general.
YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
That reminds me of the preference for white rice over more nutritious brown rice just because one is, well, white and the other isn't [1]. Similar with white flour I think. We need to learn to appreciate things for what they're really worth to us (including their true costs) not just for what they look like. _________________ Health problems come because of the polishing. Polishing rice into the sparkling white form that most people prefer has three major negative impacts on health. The first is, polishing removes most of the vitamins and minerals that are vital to health. (...) The second relates to diabetes, which is threatening to reach epidemic proportions in the Philippines over the next couple of decades. (...) Finally, polishing rice also reduces its protein content, which can mean the difference between being well-nourished or malnourished. (...) And, then, over the decades, the dominant culture defined brown rice as “dirty” and fit only for the poor, while white rice was seen as sophisticated and modern. [1] https://ips-dc.org/why_billions_eat_unhealthy_riceand_shouldnt/ https://ips-dc.org/why_billions_eat_unhealthy_riceand_should...
tim333 4y ago
My frequent train has that option if you go first class but it still just goes from A to B and is pretty limited if you want to go to C, D or E off the train line. First class is also too expensive for most.

rob_c 4y ago

planb 4y ago
Harsh reply for a perfectly valid argument. I'm all for pushing public transport, but in most places of the world it is still more convenient to drive a car for 20 minutes than to walk 5 minutes, jump in a bus for 5 minutes, wait for 10 minutes at a station, jump in a train for 15 minutes, walk 5 minutes, even if you have to drive yourself. And remember we were talking about self-driving cars here.
- atoav 4y ago
  Where I live the subway is typically faster than the car because of congestion and parking place search. And the bicycle is faster than the subway, because it goes the direct way.
- yakubin 4y ago
  Also, when you change trams/buses along the way, any delay by a vehicle in the middle of the chain gets compounded instead of just being added to the time of your arrival, since it makes you miss subsequent vehicles. With a car, if you leave 5 minutes later than you should, you should arrive 5 minutes late, not 30. And public transport is so unreliable, the delays are pretty much guaranteed for every trip, so you need to add huge time buffers to all of them if you want to be on time.
- rob_c 4y ago

atoav 4y ago

Easy: If you have shitty public transport you are gonna have a shitty experience in it. If you have a well funded, well planned and embeded public transport system, you will have a good time. But this costs more than just money — it costs space. And if you are doing it right it also costs you road space (busses and streetcars only make sense of they have their own uninterrupted lanes for the most part).

stavros 4y ago

Eh, most large European cities manage just fine, the car is often the slowest or the least convenient mode.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

That depends how you look at it, though. To my mind, the extra walking distance with public transport is generally a plus, since it serves as a decent baseline of physical activity. Even a small amount of added walking can have a significant health benefit. If you add carrying groceries and walking uphill to that the effect quickly adds up. If I had a car or (god forbid) a personal driver I'm willing to bet I'd be significantly heavier and in worse shape, and consequently all the more unhappy in general.

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago

That reminds me of the preference for white rice over more nutritious brown rice just because one is, well, white and the other isn't [1]. Similar with white flour I think. We need to learn to appreciate things for what they're really worth to us (including their true costs) not just for what they look like. _________________ Health problems come because of the polishing. Polishing rice into the sparkling white form that most people prefer has three major negative impacts on health. The first is, polishing removes most of the vitamins and minerals that are vital to health. (...) The second relates to diabetes, which is threatening to reach epidemic proportions in the Philippines over the next couple of decades. (...) Finally, polishing rice also reduces its protein content, which can mean the difference between being well-nourished or malnourished. (...) And, then, over the decades, the dominant culture defined brown rice as “dirty” and fit only for the poor, while white rice was seen as sophisticated and modern. [1] https://ips-dc.org/why_billions_eat_unhealthy_riceand_shouldnt/ https://ips-dc.org/why_billions_eat_unhealthy_riceand_should...

tim333 4y ago

My frequent train has that option if you go first class but it still just goes from A to B and is pretty limited if you want to go to C, D or E off the train line. First class is also too expensive for most.