12 ms·

Profanity Doesn't Work

60 points by noelsequeira 15y ago

bradleybuda 15y ago
Fuck that.
- epochwolf 15y ago
  Could you elaborate?
  - MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
    Sometimes shit sucks. Or, to be more verbose, sometimes somebody creates, publishes, and endorses a crafted good or work which is incredibly inferior not just to current state of the art, but also prior art and future ideals, but without any indication that the creator has encountered any reason to believe that their invention will not stand the tests of time, merchantability, reliability, insight into the human condition, etc. In those cases, it's incredibly useful to identify and call out these things as bad. If we can't use the full width and breadth of language, then it gets harder to do so; invariably, all attempts at censorship start with the negative parts of language in an attempt to whitewash thought and opinion. (As recent examples, consider Facebook's omission of a "Dislike" button, or American Idol's refusal to allow voters to indicate unfavorable opinions of all contestants. The historical ideal is Newspeak.) When we can't say that something is bad, then we lose some of our freedom, not to mention some of the expressiveness required to attack everyday problems. So, yeah, fuck that. Sometimes shit sucks.
kstenerud 15y ago
What always amuses me is the tendency of some people to "censor" out profanity (f* vs fuck and s* vs shit), as if by not actually typing the word, the writer could write about profanity and yet not be "sullied" by it, or something to that effect. Seriously, loosen up. This almost puritanical aversion to profanity is unhealthy.
- nsavant 15y ago
  Most times for me this is a habit due to e-mail profanity filters.
- Dove 15y ago
  Actually, there is an effect on the reader. Being indirect softens the blow for folks who are offended by it, much like a euphemism does.
  - sams99 15y ago
    People are always offended for "other" people, I would be curious to hear the thoughts of a person who is truly offended by the word fuck. Does it have some magic powers that cause it to fire off a pain circuit in mutant brains?
    - gliese1337 15y ago
      It has well-understood powers to fire off pain circuits in perfectly normal brains. Stephen Pinker gave a talk on the subject at Google a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU Swear words are swear words because they actually are processed differently in your brain than regular propositional speech is. They're the linguistic counterpart of the emotional signals used by other social animals. The difference is that the sounds associated with our signalling systems are learned as part of language, rather than being hard-coded and instinctual. Hence, there's the possibility for different people to have their brains trained in different ways. So, for some people, the "f-word" may not have any ill effect, but don't deceive yourself thinking that there aren't people who really are hurt by it. Since the psychological reaction is associated with the signal, not with whatever additional propositional meaning it might have in the language, referring to it by circumlocution really does have a point- it lets you talk about the words without risking triggering someone's reaction to the words.
      - Umofomia 15y ago
        For a more detailed explanation (and if you don't want to figure out where in the video he talks about it), Pinker wrote an article too: http://www.scribd.com/doc/389762/Steven-Pinker-What-the-Fuck-Why-We-Curse http://www.scribd.com/doc/389762/Steven-Pinker-What-the-Fuck... (I believe this is just an excerpt from his book, The Stuff of Thought, but it's been a while since I've read the book so I don't remember.)
mey 15y ago
Know your target audience. Sometimes it's appropriate to take an tone with the audience to get a point across or make that impact. A blog has a pretty wide audience. My opposition nature now wants to start a conference with swearing as a central theme.
malbs 15y ago
I'm not sure what industry Scott actually works in? I can look at our code-base here at work, and there are plenty of swear words through out. The classic foobar as an extension on fubar, as in fucked up beyond all recognition. Then there was that article a few years ago (which I can't even remember the actual argument, but I think it was about censorship) that the linux kernel source code would be black listed because it had 7000+ counts of the word fuck in it. Swearing almost goes with the territory of being a programmer.. Oh wait, we're not supposed to call our selves programmers any more. Colour me confused! Ok, so I add value to my organisation, I remove obstacles, and if I happen to swear while doing it, oh well!
- Aqua_Geek 15y ago
  > Swearing almost goes with the territory of being a programmer. I respectfully disagree. As a counterexample to your codebase, you'd be hard-pressed to find a single swear word in the 50k lines of one of my projects - even in the commit messages.
  - malbs 15y ago
    Sure, some of the guys on our team wouldn't commit so much as damn or hell, but they are in the minority We have something akin to a swear jar going on at work, where instead of a coin donation, you must slap yourself in the face for swearing, it's a bad day if it's not even gone 9am and you're slapping yourself And after Embarcadero finally released a 64-bit Delphi compiler complete with memory leaks and 8000% slower compile times, there was a lot face slapping going on =\
thisduck 15y ago
What makes swearing any more offensive than say, not wearing a tie at some conference? Is there anything inherent in the tie and words or is there a cultural attachment to these things that raises emotions? So then, do we always cater to the current cultural trends, or do we pave our own ways in some way? Some times we're not always looking to please, attempts to be polite can lead to concealment of details that matter. So sometimes it's worth not being polite, and politeness, too, is in the eye of the beholder. Offensive is largely still a subjective matter, you have to decide how much you value this subjectivity. Some people get offended and start throwing shit at the wall, and some people don't give a fuck.
- bborud 15y ago
  I find ties offensive.
- jamespcole 15y ago
  well said
mafro 15y ago
I think he's correct in his assumption that it's only really in America that people are offended by swear words on a slide. I'm in Europe and no one I know would blink twice to see that - although I'd defo leave it out in a sales pitch! I personally thought the unnecessary swearing was quite amusing. It's nice to see someone not taking themselves too seriously (for a change). Also reminded me of Ted Dzuiba - anyone know what happened to him? His articles on theregister were highly amusing.. Almost as funny as the comments where people just bemoaning the swearing. That was hilarious. Also reminded me of this, which was on HN a while back: http://andrewvos.com/2011/02/21/amount-of-profanity-in-git-commit-messages-per-programming-language/ http://andrewvos.com/2011/02/21/amount-of-profanity-in-git-c...
- getsat 15y ago
  Ted is still trolling away and being hilarious on his site, http://teddziuba.com http://teddziuba.com
Tsagadai 15y ago
I disagree with the article. Swearing is highly effective but only if rarely used. The article's author hints at innuendo, euphemisms, dysphemisms and doublespeak as alternatives to swearing. I am a firm believer and follower of concise eloquence so avoiding calling a spade a spade is akin to heresy. Come out and say it, don't avoid words when they perfectly describe something. Think of swearing as an alternative to hitting someone. Sometimes you really want to hit someone and there may be a good reason for it but violence is never appropriate. Swearing in such a contexts is how humans don't continuously tear each other apart. They should be a tool of last resort to express our most powerful emotions. Expletives are the most powerful words in every language, but they only retain their power when used infrequently and in contexts that demand them.
- vacri 15y ago
  The article's author hints at innuendo, euphemisms, dysphemisms and doublespeak as alternatives to swearing. I love wordplay and regularly engage in it with my friends. But to write an article using wordplay as the basic tool for explaining anything other than wordplay is worse than being offensive. You run the risk of alienating a lot of English-as-second-language folks for a start, as they lack a lot of the fluency required. But even further, I've learned heavily and repeatedly that there are considerable differences between what many American English and British English speakers can take from talking in metaphor. British English speakers (and the British themselves, in particular) live and breathe metaphor. I find that most people who can't understand speaking in metaphor are either English-second-language; American English speakers; or Brit English speakers who have dropped out of education early and have very little socialisation. It's not to say there aren't American English folks who don't understand metaphor well, it's just that it's so common for them to misunderstand it. If you hear an individual saying "But that's not literally what I said" to defend what they have actually have said between-the-lines, it's unlikely that they're a British English speaker.
  - Tsagadai 15y ago
    Second-language English speakers should always be seen as your target audience for any professional communication. Most English speakers alive today do not speak English as their first language. Also, many who speak English as a first language are not experts in English either. Metaphor, idiom and wordplay are great, interesting and they have their uses, mainly in social contexts and for identifying yourself as a member of a group. But they do little but confuse and isolate readers or listeners who aren't part of your cultural or linguistic group. Most of what I write professionally is devoid of complex words and almost every literary technique in order to be as accessible as possible (Hacker News doesn't count, I'm being myself in this forum). As for American English not having metaphors, do you not notice all of the sporting metaphors frequently used by almost every stereotypical American manager? Out of the the ball park, centre field, hit a home run, loaded bases, the bullpen, etc. I'm Australian so I spent a month watching American sports to grasp what some managers were on about in conference calls.
GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
The word "shit" is not profane, just coarse. And vulgarity has it's honored place in the lexicon. In fact, I'd say that "shit work" is an excellent term to use when describing unpleasant, meaningless activity.
baddox 15y ago
The linked article "The Nine Parts of Speech and the F-word" is silly. Replacing "John went to the bakery" with "That f* went to the bakery" does not a pronoun make, any more than "That person went to the bakery" makes "person" a pronoun. The reflexive pronoun examples are similarly weak. The third line under "Adverbs" has at least one error that makes it nonsensical. I stopped reading at that point, but I'm sure there is plenty more garbage in that article.
buff-a 15y ago
However, you take no chances of offending by not swearing, but you guarantee to offend someone if you do. Good. Fuck them. Believe me, we aren't going to get along. Best to know now. Also, I believe in evolution, think the earth is more than 4000 years old and I support gay marriage. That offends a ton of people and expressing that opinion has the same effect on those "relationships" as saying "fuck". You might think you're being polite. You're not. As Bill Hicks would say, you're sucking on Satan's cock, ice ice baby. And as a matter of economic reality, I've found that the better educated, and economically advantaged a person is, the more likely they are to use words that others have judged to be offensive. "Manners" are what the servants have. Then there's an anecdotal inverse correlation between the likelihood that a person uses the word "fuck" and the likelihood that they support dropping cluster-bombs on civilian areas. That is people go all weak at the knees if I say "fuck", but those same people are all for shredding small children: just so long as they are "non-christians". (Yeah, I'm sure you don't do that Mr No-Potty-Words HN reader - its just a general observation). Whatever.
- feralchimp 15y ago
  If you're writing people off as "too far outside your value system to be worth bothering with" because they happen to find swearing offensive, you're missing out on knowing a lot of really awesome people for a pretty stupid reason. Then again, your policy does save them hassle, so maybe it's for the best. Penalties offset...repeat first down.
  - sofuture 15y ago
    A lot of really awesome people... with ultimately incompatible value systems.
  - vacri 15y ago
    You have the cart before the horse. He's not preventing the relationship by using profanity, it's those other people that are preventing the relationship by refusing it due to profanity. It's very rare to have a user of profanity refuse to talk to someone else simply because they're not swearing.
  - 15y ago
jarin 15y ago
I did 5 years in the Navy, so I have to try really hard NOT to swear occasionally. I generally don't have a problem around children or my great grandma, but when I'm giving a talk it's pretty hard not to. I don't put swear words in my slides, though.
- vacri 15y ago
  I used to work in a hospital with children forming half our patient load. One of my fellow technicians was annoyed because she was saying 'sugar' instead of 'shit' at home now, and it didn't have the same cathartic feel to it. We used to play around with finding good 'child-safe' profanity. My favourite was 'sweet chilli chicken', which has a nice cadence to it. "Sweet chilli chicken, what do you think you're doing!?". It's a little long, but it worked for a short while...
jeffreymcmanus 15y ago
This is a little prissy. I'm far more offended by a poorly-edited tl;dr blog post than the occasional f-bomb. Both can show disrespect for the reader; there's an art to it.
nhashem 15y ago
You're sitting in a meeting to talk about strategy next quarter. Ideas are flying. People are talking over each other. Every so often someone scrawls something on a whiteboard. Then they start talking about dates and "quick wins." Estimates get thrown out, which inspires another furious rush of discussion. You keep trying to interject. You lost two engineers a month ago. Another one has put in his notice. You hired a bright kid a week ago, but he's going to need time to ramp up. You keep trying to say that hiring needs to be the focus of any new strategy, because nothing's getting done if you don't have the engineers to do it. You keep trying to raise this point and get the group to talk about how you can redouble your recruiting efforts, but everybody wants to talk about "establishing social media channels" and "improving our performance marketing network." So finally, you sigh, and raising your voices a couple notches, you say: "There is no way we're doing to do ANY OF THIS SHIT with our current staff." The room quiets down. All heads turn to you. Then the CEO says, "All right, let's talk about recruiting."
onan_barbarian 15y ago
The poster is right. Next up, I'm expecting another whiny thread about why all these t-shirt wearing "fuck that shit" guys aren't paid or treated like doctors, lawyers or architects. These are _public_ presentations. Act professional. There are almost no other professions where it would be considered de rigueur to pepper your professional presentations with profanity, or, for that matter, porn. You want to swear in your office, or in your source base (not in the public-facing API stuff), go ahead. But if you want to swear in your public persona as a professional, don't expect to be treated like that much of a professional.
maeon3 15y ago
The frequency of swearing increases as you descend the ranks of society down to the lowest levels, down to the floor where you have drunken hobos sleeping in their own filth on the side of the road. Where profanity is the most common. I support your right to use profanity, and I support my right to judge you poorly for it. PROFANITY IS KIND OF LIKE USING ALL CAPS TO GET PEOPLE TO READ THIS POST. ALL CAPS IS A GREAT WAY TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS RIGHT!
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
danilocampos 15y ago
"The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning." - Mark Twain There are occasions where only the word fuck will do. They're less common than what the habitually profane might guess (and I regrettably count myself among that group). Still – there is a talent to swearing. Part of it is delivery. Part of it is timing. But the most crucial part is knowing when – and when not – to use a particular tool for a particular instance. The people who write the Onion's headlines have this air-tight.
- scheff 15y ago
  In support of what you're saying - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_g-EOWoads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_g-EOWoads
  - socksy 15y ago
    In the vein of intelligent use of swearing with a scottish accent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9arSotadmY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9arSotadmY
jes5199 15y ago
Oh, shit.
dorian-graph 15y ago
It is a poor man who relies upon swearing to have an impact upon his readers or listeners. I view it similar to "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Swearing may get the attention of people though it seems like a quick fix that won't last. You know what else gets people's attention? Slapping them. :P What is more lasting is effective teaching skills and telling stories well and to do these well it requires practice and study. Instead of swearing try asking a good question that will get them thinking and again, good questions usually take preparation and it's not 'bad' to prepare questions as some people seem to think all good questions must be thought up on the spot. The author mentions that it's more likely that Americans (Or rather, native English speakers) find the words more 'offensive' than other countries and I've noticed this too in a few Asian countries. For example, when I was in the Philippines and we'd be talking to kids/teenagers and some would outright swear (Sometimes at you) though were ignorant of it's true meaning/effect and simply had heard it on movies/TV shows and the internet.
- semanticist 15y ago
  Don't assume that everywhere that speaks English has the same monoculture. A very strong aversion to swearing is, as far as I can tell, specifically American. I'm Scottish and I swear more or less continuously, using words that are considered to be the 'most offensive'. This isn't 'trying hard', it's simply a cultural artefact, a side-effect of growing up working class in a particular place in the world. This kind of reaction to swearing is really just parochial nonsense. (On the other hand, if you do have a character trait that some people consider a flaw, you might as well go out of your way to own it, and so: http://theswearingrubyist.com/ http://theswearingrubyist.com/ )
  - dorian-graph 15y ago
    In case people are assuming I'm American, I'll clarify. I'm not American, at all. My father is from Glasgow and I was born in Australia (Australians are known for their liberal swearing, it's the culture, apparently)—what other culture aside from Scots and Australians swear more and are less likely to be offended by it? ;) With flaws/weaknesses I agree that they should be 'embraced' so that they can be improved upon and if needed, removed, and not to use flaws/weaknesses as excuses which may be for poor behaviour/actions/whatever. It seems a common idea so far here and in most places is that 'not swearing' is inherently a religious side-effect. I have friends who are not religious and maintain their concepts of good, clean speech, of valuing what they say.
gyardley 15y ago
The author's previous post is titled "It's the transparency, stupid." How is that any better? At least 'shit' here is an adjective, instead of a direct insult.
anthuswilliams 15y ago
Profanity has a purpose. It expresses strong dissatisfaction, quite eloquently in my opinion. The article was called "Don't Give Your Users Shit Work", and maybe ZH could have gotten the point across by saying "Don't Burden Your Users With Unnecessary Tedium". But seriously, "shit work" more accurately conveys the soul-crushing awfulness of it all. Listening to this author's ideas on what constitutes appropriate (who asked him anyway?) is unnecessarily handicapping one's ability to communicate.
blake8086 15y ago
I'm reminded of http://lesswrong.com/lw/13s/the_nature_of_offense/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/13s/the_nature_of_offense/ "Specifically, to give offense is to imply that a person or group has or should have low status. Taking offense then becomes easy to explain: it’s to defend someone’s status from such an implication, out of a sense of either fairness or self-interest."
DenisM 15y ago
Profanity is like yelling, where one is (in)appropriate so is the other. Hence I never read articles that start with profanity - people who start shouting before they can explain themselves are rarely worth listening.
tgrass 15y ago
Though it can be effective, vulgarity on the web seems most often a product of laziness. Which is not always a problem. Much content we read here is for information; many comments and blogs are little more than small talk. We refer back to classic posts like P. Graham's because they were crafted with deliberation.
codypo 15y ago
At the very least, this post has given me the title of my forthcoming autobiography: Words that Are Evocative of Sex and Feces.
j_baker 15y ago
I don't necessarily disagree with the author's logic, but it would seem that the real world does: http://www.spring.org.uk/2010/10/the-persuasive-power-of-swearing.php http://www.spring.org.uk/2010/10/the-persuasive-power-of-swe... ...at least that is assuming that "shit" has the same effect as "damn".
jt2190 15y ago
I agree with Jerry Seinfeld that swearing (when writing or speaking) is not so much offensive but just a lazy way to grab people's attention. A good speaker can hold attention without resorting to swearing. That said, I actually think that the phrase "shit work" perfectly expresses the point, and I'm not sure I would have called it anything else if I were the author.
commieneko 15y ago
There are very few rules for effective comunication. There are often guidelines that are useful for the inexperienced or timid. A good speaker who knows his/her business can get away with nearly anything they can get away with...
techshit 15y ago
Profanity is popular in the tech community because it conveys that we don't give a fuck about offending people as we challenge existing norms. People are going to object to that; if they're not offended, we're not doing a good enough job.
- tensor 15y ago
  My dislike of swearing in the tech community has little to do with challenging norms or offending people. Although it's certainly crass, if you want to have such a personality you are welcome to. The problem with it is that it dilutes meaning and hinders communication. Let's take the article being discussed. What exactly is shit work? Is it unnecessary work? Is it unpleasant work? Perhaps it's work for which you are poorly compensated? Who knows! Sure, you can read the article to find out. It turns out in this case it meant unnecessary work. The author decided it might have more impact to call it shit work, however. Why? Not because he doesn't care about offending people. Rather the opposite. He knows the word carries extra baggage with it. He knows it invokes ideas of "dirty" "bad" "offensive" among others. So he uses it for impact. He's not alone in doing this. Which brings me to the second problem with it. Not only is it not a very clear way of communicating, but when everybody does it, you end up with entire communities continually making hyperbolic statements. Everyone wants to stand out and be heard, so everybody is now yelling. A product is not just poorly implemented, or rough around the edges, it's either the best or it's complete shit. This is not effective communication as far as I am concerned.
  - bborud 15y ago
    The points you raise on precision in communication are valid, but they are somewhat orthogonal to the question of whether it is acceptable to use colorful language or not. It smells a bit too much of the old accusation that the use of expletives indicates a small vocabulary or that the speaker has poor command of language. I would also like to add that I think proper swearing is a bit of an art. There has to be rythm and contrast to it. A well placed expletive in an articulate context is a thing of beauty. Not everyone can pull that off. Of course, for those incapable of elegance, there's always sheer volume. Which is a demanding discipline in its own right. For the past 20 years or so there has been a recording making the rounds in Norway of a bus driver taped while trying to fix a washing machine. In Norway it is, in all seriousness, considered somewhat of a national treasure. (Swearing is such a part of Northern Norwegian culture that calling a police officer a horse penis is legally acceptable north of the polar circle, but not to the south of it). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAeLhoWXcHI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAeLhoWXcHI (The recording circulated on tapes in the pre-internet era so the sound quality is pretty bad. But most people of the internet generation will know what you are talking about if you mention "saltdal.wav").
kingsidharth 15y ago
WTF? Really? Are we going to comment on "is swearing right or wrong", now? It's a personal choice and that's Holman's way of doing things. That's part of his persona. I, personally, would never read holman if it wasn't for swearing. People swear, they build professions over it. If you don't like it, don't do it. Get over it. PS: More examples of people who sear when working - http://ittybiz.com http://ittybiz.com , Garry Vaynerchuck, me.
bborud 15y ago
The amount of swearing that is tolerated is a function of geography. To the rest of the world, Americans are a bit prissy. I'm from Norway. To me a typical American's reaction to swearing is more offensive than the swearing itself. It offends me because because there being "forbidden words" is indeed a terribly childish notion. In fact, if you are from Norway, it takes a bit of time getting used to the childish reaction most Americans will have even to relatively mild expletives. (And I am not even from the north of Norway where swearing is more or less a byproduct of how the respiratory system works). It is just language. Grow up.
mambodog 15y ago
As a non-American, seeing people get upset about a bit of colourful language is quite amusing.
- vacri 15y ago
  Same here. That americans even have the term "F-bomb" as if it's something explosive is very amusing. The main article goes on at length for such a mild word as 'shit'. He's complaining about the mildest of swear words being used not in a professional publication nor a boardroom sales pitch, but on a personal blog site, and then as a slide for a talk. Talks are usually about a meeting of peers, communicating on a peer level is usually expected. From personal experience with long history of doing phone support, swearing helps. My rule of thumb is swear to one 'level' less than the user. If they're saying 'fuck', you can say 'shit', if they're saying 'shit', you don't swear. I've found that if you're not swearing and they are a lot, it puts them offside and they feel uncomfortable. One more unnecessary thing to manage. But the author's sensitivities are ratchetted way too high. Do I want to 'help' my industry 'outlaw' swearing? Fuck no. I'm more interested in the content of what someone says than the way in which they say it. I'd rather listen to a profanity-laden speech about a tech topic than a slick-as-snot marketroid drone on about nothing important. It's 2011 - we should be offended by context, not by mere words.
- dorian-graph 15y ago
  I'm a non-American as well. Other nationalities aside from Americans often have words in their language that cause others to be upset. I can think of some in the Philippines where I lived for a few years (If there's any Filipinos, I'm not fluent in Tagalog so I'm not aware of the 'bad words' there though I'm fluent in Hiligaynon and decent at some other local dialects) and I have friends who can speak Japanese, German, French and other languages who while living in those countries said they came across equally offensive/upsetting words.
- michaelcampbell 15y ago
  As an American, I feel the same way, but in an eye-rolling "sigh" kind of way.
silentscope 15y ago
Though I don't get behind him 100 percent, the man does have a bit of a point--especially for younger founders in a startup's initial phases. If you want the job and the respect that comes with it, act the part. Obviously the rub here lies in the speaker's ability to deliver the desired effect. But sometimes dropping an f-bomb, especially in a presentation, makes it seem like you're just trying too hard.
cleverjake 15y ago
This is totally a matter of culture. My father worked for a (US) national company that actually required etiquette training for their representatives from the northeast, because they were so much more prone to swearing in casual conversation, that it would cause others to be drawn aback and brought out of the conversation. Not to mention when you get to international differences. My australian exchange student in high school would drop 'fuck' as though it was his middle name. But regardless, I thought one of the biggest points of hacker news was the ability to grok out meaning of news and opinions, and not debate the effectiveness of its communication.
- tensor 15y ago
  But regardless, I thought one of the biggest points of hacker news was the ability to grok out meaning of news and opinions, and not debate the effectiveness of its communication. I think it's quite the opposite. The community has grown around an appreciation for effectively communicating and discussing ideas. This is why comments with little information and inflammatory comments are typically down voted. In terms of business and startups, there are numerous articles posted here that discuss nothing but communication. How do you communicate with users? How do you work well in teams? How can you get your message across clearly and effectively to prospective customers? Communication is just as vital as technical skill.
  - cleverjake 15y ago
    Of course, and I agree, however that is focusing on this particular part of the conversation strikes me as extremely superfluous. "shit work" is a colloquialism. A crass one? perhaps. But to say that it is harming the community - when it is communication within the community, just seems like FUD to me. And then to go on and claim the rest of his articles are offensive as well, simply for using one of a select few words that /this/ author finds offensive just seems like muckraking. If anyone can show me a single instance where a casual public curse has hurt anyone in our community, I will gladly eat my hat.
    - jt2190 15y ago
molbioguy 15y ago
Society works on a handshake; there is no ultimate moral arbiter. So when the vast majority agree that certain words are no longer offensive, then it's OK to use them without concern. However, as long as that isn't the case (and it certainly is not the case in general in most societies at this time) you have to consider more than just your own personal views on profanity. If you are offending a portion of your audience, then it's fair to say that you're being disrespectful to hat portion of the audience. Most people I know use profanity (sparingly) with their peers (age-wise), very rarely with their parents, and almost never with their grandparents or young children. I think that reflects a knowledge of their audience and a respect for varying levels of tolerance to profanity. I find it troubling when I encounter people that lack that level of respect for others, and shameful when I'm guilty of it myself. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether profanity will be offensive or not. So why not refrain.
- vacri 15y ago
  Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether religion will be offensive or not. So why not refrain. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether politics will be offensive or not. So why not refrain. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether NASCAR will be offensive or not. So why not refrain.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
aredington 15y ago
There are individuals who care more about fundamentally good ideas than about leveraging them for profit. We aren't sufficiently offended by profanity to consider it a net negative value in presentations.
JabavuAdams 15y ago
Oh my fucking God on a dildo. Really? If we banned swearing at work it would be a lot quieter, I guess.
AznHisoka 15y ago
I hope the guys who write the original article don't follow this guy's advice. I love people who don't give a shit what other people think, and don't have to watch what they say or do 24/7 in fear. That's freedom.
jamespcole 15y ago
Words become less powerful over time, it was't that long ago "hell" and "damn" were considered to be highly offensive, inevitably the swear words of our time will become the the emphasis words of the future. I've always held the opinion that being offended by swearing is a sign of weakness. If a single syllable can make you angry or uncomfortable(when used in a context not specifically designed to insult you) then the problem is yours alone. Given that a negative feeling towards swearing is a purely conditioned response your energies would be better spent on learning to not be offended than attempt to censor everyone else. I also find offence at swearing to be somewhat culturally specific. It seems to be much more of a concern in America than it is in other english speaking countries as it appears to be a much more conservative society generally. Concern over swearing is a rather old fashioned ideal. In these modern times where we are no longer obligated to follow the crazy arbitrary rules of conduct required religion and tradition and are only required to conduct ourselves within the rule of law there is no need to bother with outdated social conventions. Every person has to make their own decisions about their personal conduct so it should not be assumed that everyone shares your own "calibration" of acceptable speech so only the intent of the speaker should be of concern not the particular words used. So get over it, in 30 years "fuck" and "shit" will be the "hell" and "damn" of their time so why worry about it? Language changes over time, it always has and will so look forward not back.
- vacri 15y ago
  On the culturally-specific front - 'bloody' in Australia is no longer a 'swear' term, it's just a way to make something 'more Australiany'. We had a tourism campaign in the UK recently that went very poorly - the slogan was 'where the bloody hell are ya', which in Australia is a friendly catchphrase for "having a fun time, why aren't you here". Apparently the Brits don't generally have the same casual attitude to the word 'bloody'...
buff-a 15y ago
Personally, I don't use "fuck" on my company website, but I use it merrily on facebook and my personal blog. Looks like Zach used "shit" (OMG) on his personal blog, and Scott gets his knickers in a twist. Can't help but notice that Scott works for Microsoft and Zach works for GitHub. I don't think its a coincidence.
- shanselman 15y ago
  It's a coincidence. Not everything in my life has to do with my employer. FWIW, note that I work from home on open source and many of our projects are on GitHub. Zach and I are cool. No one's in a twist, we just differ on how to reach an audience.
  - buff-a 15y ago
    Its not that you differ on how to reach your audience. Its that you felt you had to call someone out on their personal blog post for using the word "shit". And while not everything in your life has to do with your employer, certainly your personal attitudes determine what kind of company you work for. Zach works for a start-up, shaking up the world of software development. You work for Microsoft, the living example of status-quo, monopolizing, our-way-or-the-highway. So, thanks for spending your time telling us we shouldn't use the word "shit", and that we should use "the Microsoft stack". Update: it just dawned on me that perhaps you thought i was suggesting that you were "attacking" Zach in some Microsoft vs GitHub proxy. No that's not what I meant at all. I'm saying its funny that the roles in this comedy, "grumpy old man" vs "uncouth upstart", neatly match the roles of your employers.
    - shanselman 15y ago
      Thanks for the update. Point taken, and touché. That is funny/ironic. Would be equally as much were I to work at Apple, Amazon or Google, I suppose. I spoke to Zach beforehand and wasn't intending to call him out (which I thought I made clear in the post, but it sounds like I did poorly) but rather than use his post as an example of changing mores in this space and a opporunity to provoke discussion. Aside: I won't try to defend Microsoft as it's 80,000 people and many, many groups, some less evil than others. That said, our group is the slightly less evil, open source, free as in beer part of Microsoft. We'll be speaking at http://krtconf.com http://krtconf.com next week on an open source realtime library we're having lots of fun with.
yesimahuman 15y ago
I work at a young startup. Swear words are so common that they are only noticed when used maliciously. I only seem to care when older people swear, which is odd. I never liked when my dad swore, but with my peers it feels natural.
molecule 15y ago
"Don't Give Your Readers Shit Words"
michaelcampbell 15y ago
I found this amusing given this article's title. And yes, perhaps I'm being sophomoric here. From the author's bio: "...I am a failed stand-up comic..." Perhaps these 2 things are related?
jdietrich 15y ago
In my experience, attitudes to swearing are a remarkably effective heuristic. If someone takes offence at my use of language, they're almost certainly going to take offence at the thoughts and feelings I use that language to communicate. People fuck and shit and piss. Those words represent the most essential parts of our nature, the most basic acts of a living animal. Use them wisely, use them to enrich communication, but don't deny them, don't try and remove them from the language. Profanity does work, precisely because it offends you, precisely because it's a shock to the system. The world is too vital and visceral for us to constrain the words we use to describe it. The world might be full of witty, creative people who hate swearing, but I certainly haven't met any. In my experience, people who dislike swearing are prissy, small-minded bigots. They're the sort of people that call modern art ugly, the sort of people who seek to constrain the private lives of adults "for the sake of the children". Frankly, they can fuck off - I've no time for any of them.

60 points by noelsequeira 15y ago

bradleybuda 15y ago

Fuck that.

epochwolf 15y ago
Could you elaborate?
- MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
  Sometimes shit sucks. Or, to be more verbose, sometimes somebody creates, publishes, and endorses a crafted good or work which is incredibly inferior not just to current state of the art, but also prior art and future ideals, but without any indication that the creator has encountered any reason to believe that their invention will not stand the tests of time, merchantability, reliability, insight into the human condition, etc. In those cases, it's incredibly useful to identify and call out these things as bad. If we can't use the full width and breadth of language, then it gets harder to do so; invariably, all attempts at censorship start with the negative parts of language in an attempt to whitewash thought and opinion. (As recent examples, consider Facebook's omission of a "Dislike" button, or American Idol's refusal to allow voters to indicate unfavorable opinions of all contestants. The historical ideal is Newspeak.) When we can't say that something is bad, then we lose some of our freedom, not to mention some of the expressiveness required to attack everyday problems. So, yeah, fuck that. Sometimes shit sucks.

kstenerud 15y ago

What always amuses me is the tendency of some people to "censor" out profanity (f* vs fuck and s* vs shit), as if by not actually typing the word, the writer could write about profanity and yet not be "sullied" by it, or something to that effect. Seriously, loosen up. This almost puritanical aversion to profanity is unhealthy.

nsavant 15y ago
Most times for me this is a habit due to e-mail profanity filters.
Dove 15y ago
Actually, there is an effect on the reader. Being indirect softens the blow for folks who are offended by it, much like a euphemism does.
- sams99 15y ago
  People are always offended for "other" people, I would be curious to hear the thoughts of a person who is truly offended by the word fuck. Does it have some magic powers that cause it to fire off a pain circuit in mutant brains?
  - gliese1337 15y ago
    It has well-understood powers to fire off pain circuits in perfectly normal brains. Stephen Pinker gave a talk on the subject at Google a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU Swear words are swear words because they actually are processed differently in your brain than regular propositional speech is. They're the linguistic counterpart of the emotional signals used by other social animals. The difference is that the sounds associated with our signalling systems are learned as part of language, rather than being hard-coded and instinctual. Hence, there's the possibility for different people to have their brains trained in different ways. So, for some people, the "f-word" may not have any ill effect, but don't deceive yourself thinking that there aren't people who really are hurt by it. Since the psychological reaction is associated with the signal, not with whatever additional propositional meaning it might have in the language, referring to it by circumlocution really does have a point- it lets you talk about the words without risking triggering someone's reaction to the words.
    - Umofomia 15y ago
      For a more detailed explanation (and if you don't want to figure out where in the video he talks about it), Pinker wrote an article too: http://www.scribd.com/doc/389762/Steven-Pinker-What-the-Fuck-Why-We-Curse http://www.scribd.com/doc/389762/Steven-Pinker-What-the-Fuck... (I believe this is just an excerpt from his book, The Stuff of Thought, but it's been a while since I've read the book so I don't remember.)

mey 15y ago

Know your target audience. Sometimes it's appropriate to take an tone with the audience to get a point across or make that impact. A blog has a pretty wide audience. My opposition nature now wants to start a conference with swearing as a central theme.

malbs 15y ago

I'm not sure what industry Scott actually works in? I can look at our code-base here at work, and there are plenty of swear words through out. The classic foobar as an extension on fubar, as in fucked up beyond all recognition. Then there was that article a few years ago (which I can't even remember the actual argument, but I think it was about censorship) that the linux kernel source code would be black listed because it had 7000+ counts of the word fuck in it. Swearing almost goes with the territory of being a programmer.. Oh wait, we're not supposed to call our selves programmers any more. Colour me confused! Ok, so I add value to my organisation, I remove obstacles, and if I happen to swear while doing it, oh well!

Aqua_Geek 15y ago
> Swearing almost goes with the territory of being a programmer. I respectfully disagree. As a counterexample to your codebase, you'd be hard-pressed to find a single swear word in the 50k lines of one of my projects - even in the commit messages.
- malbs 15y ago
  Sure, some of the guys on our team wouldn't commit so much as damn or hell, but they are in the minority We have something akin to a swear jar going on at work, where instead of a coin donation, you must slap yourself in the face for swearing, it's a bad day if it's not even gone 9am and you're slapping yourself And after Embarcadero finally released a 64-bit Delphi compiler complete with memory leaks and 8000% slower compile times, there was a lot face slapping going on =\

thisduck 15y ago

What makes swearing any more offensive than say, not wearing a tie at some conference? Is there anything inherent in the tie and words or is there a cultural attachment to these things that raises emotions? So then, do we always cater to the current cultural trends, or do we pave our own ways in some way? Some times we're not always looking to please, attempts to be polite can lead to concealment of details that matter. So sometimes it's worth not being polite, and politeness, too, is in the eye of the beholder. Offensive is largely still a subjective matter, you have to decide how much you value this subjectivity. Some people get offended and start throwing shit at the wall, and some people don't give a fuck.

bborud 15y ago
I find ties offensive.
jamespcole 15y ago
well said

mafro 15y ago

I think he's correct in his assumption that it's only really in America that people are offended by swear words on a slide. I'm in Europe and no one I know would blink twice to see that - although I'd defo leave it out in a sales pitch! I personally thought the unnecessary swearing was quite amusing. It's nice to see someone not taking themselves too seriously (for a change). Also reminded me of Ted Dzuiba - anyone know what happened to him? His articles on theregister were highly amusing.. Almost as funny as the comments where people just bemoaning the swearing. That was hilarious. Also reminded me of this, which was on HN a while back: http://andrewvos.com/2011/02/21/amount-of-profanity-in-git-commit-messages-per-programming-language/ http://andrewvos.com/2011/02/21/amount-of-profanity-in-git-c...

getsat 15y ago
Ted is still trolling away and being hilarious on his site, http://teddziuba.com http://teddziuba.com

Tsagadai 15y ago

I disagree with the article. Swearing is highly effective but only if rarely used. The article's author hints at innuendo, euphemisms, dysphemisms and doublespeak as alternatives to swearing. I am a firm believer and follower of concise eloquence so avoiding calling a spade a spade is akin to heresy. Come out and say it, don't avoid words when they perfectly describe something. Think of swearing as an alternative to hitting someone. Sometimes you really want to hit someone and there may be a good reason for it but violence is never appropriate. Swearing in such a contexts is how humans don't continuously tear each other apart. They should be a tool of last resort to express our most powerful emotions. Expletives are the most powerful words in every language, but they only retain their power when used infrequently and in contexts that demand them.

vacri 15y ago
The article's author hints at innuendo, euphemisms, dysphemisms and doublespeak as alternatives to swearing. I love wordplay and regularly engage in it with my friends. But to write an article using wordplay as the basic tool for explaining anything other than wordplay is worse than being offensive. You run the risk of alienating a lot of English-as-second-language folks for a start, as they lack a lot of the fluency required. But even further, I've learned heavily and repeatedly that there are considerable differences between what many American English and British English speakers can take from talking in metaphor. British English speakers (and the British themselves, in particular) live and breathe metaphor. I find that most people who can't understand speaking in metaphor are either English-second-language; American English speakers; or Brit English speakers who have dropped out of education early and have very little socialisation. It's not to say there aren't American English folks who don't understand metaphor well, it's just that it's so common for them to misunderstand it. If you hear an individual saying "But that's not literally what I said" to defend what they have actually have said between-the-lines, it's unlikely that they're a British English speaker.
- Tsagadai 15y ago
  Second-language English speakers should always be seen as your target audience for any professional communication. Most English speakers alive today do not speak English as their first language. Also, many who speak English as a first language are not experts in English either. Metaphor, idiom and wordplay are great, interesting and they have their uses, mainly in social contexts and for identifying yourself as a member of a group. But they do little but confuse and isolate readers or listeners who aren't part of your cultural or linguistic group. Most of what I write professionally is devoid of complex words and almost every literary technique in order to be as accessible as possible (Hacker News doesn't count, I'm being myself in this forum). As for American English not having metaphors, do you not notice all of the sporting metaphors frequently used by almost every stereotypical American manager? Out of the the ball park, centre field, hit a home run, loaded bases, the bullpen, etc. I'm Australian so I spent a month watching American sports to grasp what some managers were on about in conference calls.

GiraffeNecktie 15y ago

The word "shit" is not profane, just coarse. And vulgarity has it's honored place in the lexicon. In fact, I'd say that "shit work" is an excellent term to use when describing unpleasant, meaningless activity.

baddox 15y ago

The linked article "The Nine Parts of Speech and the F-word" is silly. Replacing "John went to the bakery" with "That f* went to the bakery" does not a pronoun make, any more than "That person went to the bakery" makes "person" a pronoun. The reflexive pronoun examples are similarly weak. The third line under "Adverbs" has at least one error that makes it nonsensical. I stopped reading at that point, but I'm sure there is plenty more garbage in that article.

buff-a 15y ago

However, you take no chances of offending by not swearing, but you guarantee to offend someone if you do. Good. Fuck them. Believe me, we aren't going to get along. Best to know now. Also, I believe in evolution, think the earth is more than 4000 years old and I support gay marriage. That offends a ton of people and expressing that opinion has the same effect on those "relationships" as saying "fuck". You might think you're being polite. You're not. As Bill Hicks would say, you're sucking on Satan's cock, ice ice baby. And as a matter of economic reality, I've found that the better educated, and economically advantaged a person is, the more likely they are to use words that others have judged to be offensive. "Manners" are what the servants have. Then there's an anecdotal inverse correlation between the likelihood that a person uses the word "fuck" and the likelihood that they support dropping cluster-bombs on civilian areas. That is people go all weak at the knees if I say "fuck", but those same people are all for shredding small children: just so long as they are "non-christians". (Yeah, I'm sure you don't do that Mr No-Potty-Words HN reader - its just a general observation). Whatever.

feralchimp 15y ago
If you're writing people off as "too far outside your value system to be worth bothering with" because they happen to find swearing offensive, you're missing out on knowing a lot of really awesome people for a pretty stupid reason. Then again, your policy does save them hassle, so maybe it's for the best. Penalties offset...repeat first down.
- sofuture 15y ago
  A lot of really awesome people... with ultimately incompatible value systems.
- vacri 15y ago
  You have the cart before the horse. He's not preventing the relationship by using profanity, it's those other people that are preventing the relationship by refusing it due to profanity. It's very rare to have a user of profanity refuse to talk to someone else simply because they're not swearing.
- 15y ago

jarin 15y ago

I did 5 years in the Navy, so I have to try really hard NOT to swear occasionally. I generally don't have a problem around children or my great grandma, but when I'm giving a talk it's pretty hard not to. I don't put swear words in my slides, though.

vacri 15y ago
I used to work in a hospital with children forming half our patient load. One of my fellow technicians was annoyed because she was saying 'sugar' instead of 'shit' at home now, and it didn't have the same cathartic feel to it. We used to play around with finding good 'child-safe' profanity. My favourite was 'sweet chilli chicken', which has a nice cadence to it. "Sweet chilli chicken, what do you think you're doing!?". It's a little long, but it worked for a short while...

jeffreymcmanus 15y ago

This is a little prissy. I'm far more offended by a poorly-edited tl;dr blog post than the occasional f-bomb. Both can show disrespect for the reader; there's an art to it.

nhashem 15y ago

You're sitting in a meeting to talk about strategy next quarter. Ideas are flying. People are talking over each other. Every so often someone scrawls something on a whiteboard. Then they start talking about dates and "quick wins." Estimates get thrown out, which inspires another furious rush of discussion. You keep trying to interject. You lost two engineers a month ago. Another one has put in his notice. You hired a bright kid a week ago, but he's going to need time to ramp up. You keep trying to say that hiring needs to be the focus of any new strategy, because nothing's getting done if you don't have the engineers to do it. You keep trying to raise this point and get the group to talk about how you can redouble your recruiting efforts, but everybody wants to talk about "establishing social media channels" and "improving our performance marketing network." So finally, you sigh, and raising your voices a couple notches, you say: "There is no way we're doing to do ANY OF THIS SHIT with our current staff." The room quiets down. All heads turn to you. Then the CEO says, "All right, let's talk about recruiting."

onan_barbarian 15y ago

The poster is right. Next up, I'm expecting another whiny thread about why all these t-shirt wearing "fuck that shit" guys aren't paid or treated like doctors, lawyers or architects. These are _public_ presentations. Act professional. There are almost no other professions where it would be considered de rigueur to pepper your professional presentations with profanity, or, for that matter, porn. You want to swear in your office, or in your source base (not in the public-facing API stuff), go ahead. But if you want to swear in your public persona as a professional, don't expect to be treated like that much of a professional.

maeon3 15y ago

The frequency of swearing increases as you descend the ranks of society down to the lowest levels, down to the floor where you have drunken hobos sleeping in their own filth on the side of the road. Where profanity is the most common. I support your right to use profanity, and I support my right to judge you poorly for it. PROFANITY IS KIND OF LIKE USING ALL CAPS TO GET PEOPLE TO READ THIS POST. ALL CAPS IS A GREAT WAY TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS RIGHT!

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

danilocampos 15y ago

"The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning." - Mark Twain There are occasions where only the word fuck will do. They're less common than what the habitually profane might guess (and I regrettably count myself among that group). Still – there is a talent to swearing. Part of it is delivery. Part of it is timing. But the most crucial part is knowing when – and when not – to use a particular tool for a particular instance. The people who write the Onion's headlines have this air-tight.

scheff 15y ago
In support of what you're saying - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_g-EOWoads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_g-EOWoads
- socksy 15y ago
  In the vein of intelligent use of swearing with a scottish accent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9arSotadmY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9arSotadmY

jes5199 15y ago

Oh, shit.

dorian-graph 15y ago

It is a poor man who relies upon swearing to have an impact upon his readers or listeners. I view it similar to "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Swearing may get the attention of people though it seems like a quick fix that won't last. You know what else gets people's attention? Slapping them. :P What is more lasting is effective teaching skills and telling stories well and to do these well it requires practice and study. Instead of swearing try asking a good question that will get them thinking and again, good questions usually take preparation and it's not 'bad' to prepare questions as some people seem to think all good questions must be thought up on the spot. The author mentions that it's more likely that Americans (Or rather, native English speakers) find the words more 'offensive' than other countries and I've noticed this too in a few Asian countries. For example, when I was in the Philippines and we'd be talking to kids/teenagers and some would outright swear (Sometimes at you) though were ignorant of it's true meaning/effect and simply had heard it on movies/TV shows and the internet.

semanticist 15y ago
Don't assume that everywhere that speaks English has the same monoculture. A very strong aversion to swearing is, as far as I can tell, specifically American. I'm Scottish and I swear more or less continuously, using words that are considered to be the 'most offensive'. This isn't 'trying hard', it's simply a cultural artefact, a side-effect of growing up working class in a particular place in the world. This kind of reaction to swearing is really just parochial nonsense. (On the other hand, if you do have a character trait that some people consider a flaw, you might as well go out of your way to own it, and so: http://theswearingrubyist.com/ http://theswearingrubyist.com/ )
- dorian-graph 15y ago
  In case people are assuming I'm American, I'll clarify. I'm not American, at all. My father is from Glasgow and I was born in Australia (Australians are known for their liberal swearing, it's the culture, apparently)—what other culture aside from Scots and Australians swear more and are less likely to be offended by it? ;) With flaws/weaknesses I agree that they should be 'embraced' so that they can be improved upon and if needed, removed, and not to use flaws/weaknesses as excuses which may be for poor behaviour/actions/whatever. It seems a common idea so far here and in most places is that 'not swearing' is inherently a religious side-effect. I have friends who are not religious and maintain their concepts of good, clean speech, of valuing what they say.

gyardley 15y ago

The author's previous post is titled "It's the transparency, stupid." How is that any better? At least 'shit' here is an adjective, instead of a direct insult.

anthuswilliams 15y ago

Profanity has a purpose. It expresses strong dissatisfaction, quite eloquently in my opinion. The article was called "Don't Give Your Users Shit Work", and maybe ZH could have gotten the point across by saying "Don't Burden Your Users With Unnecessary Tedium". But seriously, "shit work" more accurately conveys the soul-crushing awfulness of it all. Listening to this author's ideas on what constitutes appropriate (who asked him anyway?) is unnecessarily handicapping one's ability to communicate.

blake8086 15y ago

I'm reminded of http://lesswrong.com/lw/13s/the_nature_of_offense/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/13s/the_nature_of_offense/ "Specifically, to give offense is to imply that a person or group has or should have low status. Taking offense then becomes easy to explain: it’s to defend someone’s status from such an implication, out of a sense of either fairness or self-interest."

DenisM 15y ago

Profanity is like yelling, where one is (in)appropriate so is the other. Hence I never read articles that start with profanity - people who start shouting before they can explain themselves are rarely worth listening.

tgrass 15y ago

Though it can be effective, vulgarity on the web seems most often a product of laziness. Which is not always a problem. Much content we read here is for information; many comments and blogs are little more than small talk. We refer back to classic posts like P. Graham's because they were crafted with deliberation.

codypo 15y ago

At the very least, this post has given me the title of my forthcoming autobiography: Words that Are Evocative of Sex and Feces.

j_baker 15y ago

I don't necessarily disagree with the author's logic, but it would seem that the real world does: http://www.spring.org.uk/2010/10/the-persuasive-power-of-swearing.php http://www.spring.org.uk/2010/10/the-persuasive-power-of-swe... ...at least that is assuming that "shit" has the same effect as "damn".

jt2190 15y ago

I agree with Jerry Seinfeld that swearing (when writing or speaking) is not so much offensive but just a lazy way to grab people's attention. A good speaker can hold attention without resorting to swearing. That said, I actually think that the phrase "shit work" perfectly expresses the point, and I'm not sure I would have called it anything else if I were the author.

commieneko 15y ago

There are very few rules for effective comunication. There are often guidelines that are useful for the inexperienced or timid. A good speaker who knows his/her business can get away with nearly anything they can get away with...

techshit 15y ago

Profanity is popular in the tech community because it conveys that we don't give a fuck about offending people as we challenge existing norms. People are going to object to that; if they're not offended, we're not doing a good enough job.

tensor 15y ago
My dislike of swearing in the tech community has little to do with challenging norms or offending people. Although it's certainly crass, if you want to have such a personality you are welcome to. The problem with it is that it dilutes meaning and hinders communication. Let's take the article being discussed. What exactly is shit work? Is it unnecessary work? Is it unpleasant work? Perhaps it's work for which you are poorly compensated? Who knows! Sure, you can read the article to find out. It turns out in this case it meant unnecessary work. The author decided it might have more impact to call it shit work, however. Why? Not because he doesn't care about offending people. Rather the opposite. He knows the word carries extra baggage with it. He knows it invokes ideas of "dirty" "bad" "offensive" among others. So he uses it for impact. He's not alone in doing this. Which brings me to the second problem with it. Not only is it not a very clear way of communicating, but when everybody does it, you end up with entire communities continually making hyperbolic statements. Everyone wants to stand out and be heard, so everybody is now yelling. A product is not just poorly implemented, or rough around the edges, it's either the best or it's complete shit. This is not effective communication as far as I am concerned.
- bborud 15y ago
  The points you raise on precision in communication are valid, but they are somewhat orthogonal to the question of whether it is acceptable to use colorful language or not. It smells a bit too much of the old accusation that the use of expletives indicates a small vocabulary or that the speaker has poor command of language. I would also like to add that I think proper swearing is a bit of an art. There has to be rythm and contrast to it. A well placed expletive in an articulate context is a thing of beauty. Not everyone can pull that off. Of course, for those incapable of elegance, there's always sheer volume. Which is a demanding discipline in its own right. For the past 20 years or so there has been a recording making the rounds in Norway of a bus driver taped while trying to fix a washing machine. In Norway it is, in all seriousness, considered somewhat of a national treasure. (Swearing is such a part of Northern Norwegian culture that calling a police officer a horse penis is legally acceptable north of the polar circle, but not to the south of it). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAeLhoWXcHI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAeLhoWXcHI (The recording circulated on tapes in the pre-internet era so the sound quality is pretty bad. But most people of the internet generation will know what you are talking about if you mention "saltdal.wav").

kingsidharth 15y ago

WTF? Really? Are we going to comment on "is swearing right or wrong", now? It's a personal choice and that's Holman's way of doing things. That's part of his persona. I, personally, would never read holman if it wasn't for swearing. People swear, they build professions over it. If you don't like it, don't do it. Get over it. PS: More examples of people who sear when working - http://ittybiz.com http://ittybiz.com , Garry Vaynerchuck, me.

bborud 15y ago

The amount of swearing that is tolerated is a function of geography. To the rest of the world, Americans are a bit prissy. I'm from Norway. To me a typical American's reaction to swearing is more offensive than the swearing itself. It offends me because because there being "forbidden words" is indeed a terribly childish notion. In fact, if you are from Norway, it takes a bit of time getting used to the childish reaction most Americans will have even to relatively mild expletives. (And I am not even from the north of Norway where swearing is more or less a byproduct of how the respiratory system works). It is just language. Grow up.

mambodog 15y ago

As a non-American, seeing people get upset about a bit of colourful language is quite amusing.

vacri 15y ago
Same here. That americans even have the term "F-bomb" as if it's something explosive is very amusing. The main article goes on at length for such a mild word as 'shit'. He's complaining about the mildest of swear words being used not in a professional publication nor a boardroom sales pitch, but on a personal blog site, and then as a slide for a talk. Talks are usually about a meeting of peers, communicating on a peer level is usually expected. From personal experience with long history of doing phone support, swearing helps. My rule of thumb is swear to one 'level' less than the user. If they're saying 'fuck', you can say 'shit', if they're saying 'shit', you don't swear. I've found that if you're not swearing and they are a lot, it puts them offside and they feel uncomfortable. One more unnecessary thing to manage. But the author's sensitivities are ratchetted way too high. Do I want to 'help' my industry 'outlaw' swearing? Fuck no. I'm more interested in the content of what someone says than the way in which they say it. I'd rather listen to a profanity-laden speech about a tech topic than a slick-as-snot marketroid drone on about nothing important. It's 2011 - we should be offended by context, not by mere words.
dorian-graph 15y ago
I'm a non-American as well. Other nationalities aside from Americans often have words in their language that cause others to be upset. I can think of some in the Philippines where I lived for a few years (If there's any Filipinos, I'm not fluent in Tagalog so I'm not aware of the 'bad words' there though I'm fluent in Hiligaynon and decent at some other local dialects) and I have friends who can speak Japanese, German, French and other languages who while living in those countries said they came across equally offensive/upsetting words.
michaelcampbell 15y ago
As an American, I feel the same way, but in an eye-rolling "sigh" kind of way.

silentscope 15y ago

Though I don't get behind him 100 percent, the man does have a bit of a point--especially for younger founders in a startup's initial phases. If you want the job and the respect that comes with it, act the part. Obviously the rub here lies in the speaker's ability to deliver the desired effect. But sometimes dropping an f-bomb, especially in a presentation, makes it seem like you're just trying too hard.

cleverjake 15y ago

This is totally a matter of culture. My father worked for a (US) national company that actually required etiquette training for their representatives from the northeast, because they were so much more prone to swearing in casual conversation, that it would cause others to be drawn aback and brought out of the conversation. Not to mention when you get to international differences. My australian exchange student in high school would drop 'fuck' as though it was his middle name. But regardless, I thought one of the biggest points of hacker news was the ability to grok out meaning of news and opinions, and not debate the effectiveness of its communication.

tensor 15y ago
But regardless, I thought one of the biggest points of hacker news was the ability to grok out meaning of news and opinions, and not debate the effectiveness of its communication. I think it's quite the opposite. The community has grown around an appreciation for effectively communicating and discussing ideas. This is why comments with little information and inflammatory comments are typically down voted. In terms of business and startups, there are numerous articles posted here that discuss nothing but communication. How do you communicate with users? How do you work well in teams? How can you get your message across clearly and effectively to prospective customers? Communication is just as vital as technical skill.
- cleverjake 15y ago
  Of course, and I agree, however that is focusing on this particular part of the conversation strikes me as extremely superfluous. "shit work" is a colloquialism. A crass one? perhaps. But to say that it is harming the community - when it is communication within the community, just seems like FUD to me. And then to go on and claim the rest of his articles are offensive as well, simply for using one of a select few words that /this/ author finds offensive just seems like muckraking. If anyone can show me a single instance where a casual public curse has hurt anyone in our community, I will gladly eat my hat.
  - jt2190 15y ago

molbioguy 15y ago

Society works on a handshake; there is no ultimate moral arbiter. So when the vast majority agree that certain words are no longer offensive, then it's OK to use them without concern. However, as long as that isn't the case (and it certainly is not the case in general in most societies at this time) you have to consider more than just your own personal views on profanity. If you are offending a portion of your audience, then it's fair to say that you're being disrespectful to hat portion of the audience. Most people I know use profanity (sparingly) with their peers (age-wise), very rarely with their parents, and almost never with their grandparents or young children. I think that reflects a knowledge of their audience and a respect for varying levels of tolerance to profanity. I find it troubling when I encounter people that lack that level of respect for others, and shameful when I'm guilty of it myself. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether profanity will be offensive or not. So why not refrain.

vacri 15y ago
Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether religion will be offensive or not. So why not refrain. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether politics will be offensive or not. So why not refrain. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether NASCAR will be offensive or not. So why not refrain.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

aredington 15y ago

There are individuals who care more about fundamentally good ideas than about leveraging them for profit. We aren't sufficiently offended by profanity to consider it a net negative value in presentations.

JabavuAdams 15y ago

Oh my fucking God on a dildo. Really? If we banned swearing at work it would be a lot quieter, I guess.

AznHisoka 15y ago

I hope the guys who write the original article don't follow this guy's advice. I love people who don't give a shit what other people think, and don't have to watch what they say or do 24/7 in fear. That's freedom.

jamespcole 15y ago

Words become less powerful over time, it was't that long ago "hell" and "damn" were considered to be highly offensive, inevitably the swear words of our time will become the the emphasis words of the future. I've always held the opinion that being offended by swearing is a sign of weakness. If a single syllable can make you angry or uncomfortable(when used in a context not specifically designed to insult you) then the problem is yours alone. Given that a negative feeling towards swearing is a purely conditioned response your energies would be better spent on learning to not be offended than attempt to censor everyone else. I also find offence at swearing to be somewhat culturally specific. It seems to be much more of a concern in America than it is in other english speaking countries as it appears to be a much more conservative society generally. Concern over swearing is a rather old fashioned ideal. In these modern times where we are no longer obligated to follow the crazy arbitrary rules of conduct required religion and tradition and are only required to conduct ourselves within the rule of law there is no need to bother with outdated social conventions. Every person has to make their own decisions about their personal conduct so it should not be assumed that everyone shares your own "calibration" of acceptable speech so only the intent of the speaker should be of concern not the particular words used. So get over it, in 30 years "fuck" and "shit" will be the "hell" and "damn" of their time so why worry about it? Language changes over time, it always has and will so look forward not back.

vacri 15y ago
On the culturally-specific front - 'bloody' in Australia is no longer a 'swear' term, it's just a way to make something 'more Australiany'. We had a tourism campaign in the UK recently that went very poorly - the slogan was 'where the bloody hell are ya', which in Australia is a friendly catchphrase for "having a fun time, why aren't you here". Apparently the Brits don't generally have the same casual attitude to the word 'bloody'...

buff-a 15y ago

Personally, I don't use "fuck" on my company website, but I use it merrily on facebook and my personal blog. Looks like Zach used "shit" (OMG) on his personal blog, and Scott gets his knickers in a twist. Can't help but notice that Scott works for Microsoft and Zach works for GitHub. I don't think its a coincidence.

shanselman 15y ago
It's a coincidence. Not everything in my life has to do with my employer. FWIW, note that I work from home on open source and many of our projects are on GitHub. Zach and I are cool. No one's in a twist, we just differ on how to reach an audience.
- buff-a 15y ago
  Its not that you differ on how to reach your audience. Its that you felt you had to call someone out on their personal blog post for using the word "shit". And while not everything in your life has to do with your employer, certainly your personal attitudes determine what kind of company you work for. Zach works for a start-up, shaking up the world of software development. You work for Microsoft, the living example of status-quo, monopolizing, our-way-or-the-highway. So, thanks for spending your time telling us we shouldn't use the word "shit", and that we should use "the Microsoft stack". Update: it just dawned on me that perhaps you thought i was suggesting that you were "attacking" Zach in some Microsoft vs GitHub proxy. No that's not what I meant at all. I'm saying its funny that the roles in this comedy, "grumpy old man" vs "uncouth upstart", neatly match the roles of your employers.
  - shanselman 15y ago
    Thanks for the update. Point taken, and touché. That is funny/ironic. Would be equally as much were I to work at Apple, Amazon or Google, I suppose. I spoke to Zach beforehand and wasn't intending to call him out (which I thought I made clear in the post, but it sounds like I did poorly) but rather than use his post as an example of changing mores in this space and a opporunity to provoke discussion. Aside: I won't try to defend Microsoft as it's 80,000 people and many, many groups, some less evil than others. That said, our group is the slightly less evil, open source, free as in beer part of Microsoft. We'll be speaking at http://krtconf.com http://krtconf.com next week on an open source realtime library we're having lots of fun with.

yesimahuman 15y ago

I work at a young startup. Swear words are so common that they are only noticed when used maliciously. I only seem to care when older people swear, which is odd. I never liked when my dad swore, but with my peers it feels natural.

molecule 15y ago

"Don't Give Your Readers Shit Words"

michaelcampbell 15y ago

I found this amusing given this article's title. And yes, perhaps I'm being sophomoric here. From the author's bio: "...I am a failed stand-up comic..." Perhaps these 2 things are related?

jdietrich 15y ago

In my experience, attitudes to swearing are a remarkably effective heuristic. If someone takes offence at my use of language, they're almost certainly going to take offence at the thoughts and feelings I use that language to communicate. People fuck and shit and piss. Those words represent the most essential parts of our nature, the most basic acts of a living animal. Use them wisely, use them to enrich communication, but don't deny them, don't try and remove them from the language. Profanity does work, precisely because it offends you, precisely because it's a shock to the system. The world is too vital and visceral for us to constrain the words we use to describe it. The world might be full of witty, creative people who hate swearing, but I certainly haven't met any. In my experience, people who dislike swearing are prissy, small-minded bigots. They're the sort of people that call modern art ugly, the sort of people who seek to constrain the private lives of adults "for the sake of the children". Frankly, they can fuck off - I've no time for any of them.