7 ms·

The thermal throttling and high temps are interesting because I haven't seen it reported before. The comparisons he makes to the m1 pro - I thought the m2 was s

The thermal throttling and high temps are interesting because I haven't seen it reported before. The comparisons he makes to the m1 pro - I thought the m2 was supposed to site between the m1 and m1 pro in terms of performance, so not meeting m1 pro performance is probably by design, no?

assttoasstmgr 4y ago
Why would you assume benevolence on Apple's part and not incompetence? Remember that time about 15 years ago when MacBook Pros were all overheating and the root cause was Apple was adding 10x the amount of thermal paste needed at the factory? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
- jerlam 4y ago
  There's a even more recent throttling case with the 2018 MBP: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-throttling-bug-fix/ https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-thrott...
- dijit 4y ago
  Sounds about the same time as nVidia shipped them GPUs and lied about their thermal envelope; causing a bunch of them to heat up the entire machine and even desolder themselves from the main board, souring the relationship between nVidia and Apple ever since. Are you sure you’re not getting them confused?
  - rasz 4y ago
    Nvidia didnt lie about TDP. Apple is famous in EE circles for running their gear as close to TjMax as possible to avoid turning up fans. 8600M had a design defect, bad composition of glue securing microbumps connecting die to package. Thermal cycling in high stress scenarios softened improperly selected underfill and broke microbumps connecting die to package. Repeated heating up can again soften the compound to release stresses and temporarily reconnect broken traces. It never fixes the main issue of broken chip. https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2011837#Problems https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2011837#Problems https://semiaccurate.com/2009/08/21/nvidia-finally-understands-bumpgate/ https://semiaccurate.com/2009/08/21/nvidia-finally-understan... >On July 2, 2009, the date being ironically a year after the notorious 8-K that publicly kicked off bumpgate, the company put up a job listing for a “DIRECTOR OF PACKAGE TECHNOLOGY”. https://notebooks.com/2008/10/10/apple-to-replace-faulty-nvidia-gpus-in-macbook-pros/ https://notebooks.com/2008/10/10/apple-to-replace-faulty-nvi... 2010 saw 820-2850 with N8 (330uF) Tantalum caps frying under the GPU. For 2011 Apple "wisely" switched to AMD and we got 820-2915 with fried AMD GPUs :) Apple is simply BAD at cooling.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  One person on SomethingAwful re-pasted their MBP (of unknown age), and saw reduced temperatures. They never said it was "overheating", Macs (and all Intel/AMD processors...) have thermal throttling so they can't "overheat", and it's normal for thermal paste to degrade within 2-3 years. It's also normal for laptops to get clogged with dust; I saw a huge reduction in temps on my MBP after I cleaned out the heatsinks, having taken the cover off and found them clogged. The person posted pictures of the original paste job from the factory. The amount of paste is not unreasonable, and what was instead evident was that the paste had dried out, which, again, is normal. That didn't stop people from overreacting and declaring a corporation (one famous for obsessively controlling its production chain) to be idiots. It did not have "10x the thermal paste needed." GamersNexus has solidly disproven the "too much paste causes overheating" myth. Excess paste just squirts out the sides, which is not a problem unless it is conductive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUWVVTY63hc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUWVVTY63hc What caused people to really lose their minds was a screengrab that was claimed (with no evidence whatsoever) to be from the repair manual showing wildly inappropriate levels of thermal paste being applied. The screenshot was never confirmed and given the source - again, SomethingAwful - it was almost certainly not the repair manual or factory instructions (the factory instructions wouldn't be in English, for starters...) https://www.techpowerup.com/11403/overheating-macbook-pro-mystery-solved https://www.techpowerup.com/11403/overheating-macbook-pro-my... Seems Pepperidge Farm's memory isn't as good as you thought, or you're pushing some sort of agenda.
  - watersb 4y ago
    Useless anecdotes, but I have seen specific product lines with problematic thermals that was a result of incorrect application of thermal compound. I've seen way too much thermal paste on Mac laptop boards. Not just Apple; for a while I think 2007-2010, I was seeing a number of very inexpensive desktop computers with cooked thermal compound on AMD CPUs. These observations aren't worth much, but it doesn't surprise me if a new Mac has thermal issues in the field. Although my M1 MacBook Air is the best, coolest-running machine I have ever had.
  - miles 4y ago
    > claimed (with no evidence whatsoever) to be from the repair manual showing wildly inappropriate levels of thermal paste being applied. ... the factory instructions wouldn't be in English The claim was for the service manual, not repair manual: http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=295925 http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=295925 Apple used to produce detailed service manuals in English: https://www.applerepairmanuals.com/the_manuals_are_in_here/iMac_flatpanel.pdf https://www.applerepairmanuals.com/the_manuals_are_in_here/i... More on the overheating issue: https://paulstamatiou.com/macbook-too-hot-to-handle-literally/ https://paulstamatiou.com/macbook-too-hot-to-handle-literall...
- Bud 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure "Apple" was not adding that thermal paste. ;)
- asdff 4y ago
  My intel air with the latest redesigned body also throttled constantly. the cooling system wasn't adequate for a mobile ice lake chip.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
teruakohatu 4y ago
I agree, I don't know why it is supposed to be faster than a M1 Pro. But those high temps look brutal, as does the oscillating throttle, also nobody wants a fan running full speed non-stop if possible.
_aavaa_ 4y ago
I thought the same thing, but if you keep scrolling he did do a M1 vs M2 comparison. The M1 did end up hitting 100% on the fans, but capped out at 94˚C instead of 108˚C. It also did end up throttling slightly (dropping to 21.87W from a peek of 24W). The M2 meanwhile throttles from 29.46W to 7.3W. The time comparison was M1: 21 min 40sec, M2: 19 min 40 sec. Much less than you would except given core and spec difference. So yeah, technically the one fan isn't enough for all circumstances. Is exporting 8K footage for 20 minutes of their entry-level laptop the target use-case? And if so, how much would fixing this be worth to the average end user?
- savant_penguin 4y ago
  Idk I expect my computer to be able to run at 100% without some sort of death clock Blaming bad thermal design on "use case" does not make sense to me. If you'd like to run some intensive numerical programming on your laptop just because, I would find it outrageous for it to shutdown due to thermals. Can other hardware designers use that excuse too? "Oh your software use case is not covered by the cpu voltage regulators", "the power supply was not meant to be on all the time", "the power cable should not be connected for that long", "you should not use 90% of your ram for 4 hours straight, it was not designed for that use case" "Oh the average end user only uses the car 1h/day. This 5h long trip was not the expected use case, that's why it overheated"
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Duty cycle- the ratio of time a component may be powered- is really quite common. Cars can only rev the engine in the red zone for a limited duration. Lasers on CNC machines, welders, engine hoists, etc. all have specific capacities that you shouldn't exceed. Expecting your CPU to run flat-out at 100% indefinitely without reprocussion seems strange to me. Heat is the great killer of electronics, and unless your rig is water cooled I don't know that I've used a laptop before with the thermal management to withstand extended full load- either it throttles down or it damages itself.
    - perryizgr8 4y ago

assttoasstmgr 4y ago

Why would you assume benevolence on Apple's part and not incompetence? Remember that time about 15 years ago when MacBook Pros were all overheating and the root cause was Apple was adding 10x the amount of thermal paste needed at the factory? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

jerlam 4y ago
There's a even more recent throttling case with the 2018 MBP: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-throttling-bug-fix/ https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-thrott...
dijit 4y ago
Sounds about the same time as nVidia shipped them GPUs and lied about their thermal envelope; causing a bunch of them to heat up the entire machine and even desolder themselves from the main board, souring the relationship between nVidia and Apple ever since. Are you sure you’re not getting them confused?
- rasz 4y ago
  Nvidia didnt lie about TDP. Apple is famous in EE circles for running their gear as close to TjMax as possible to avoid turning up fans. 8600M had a design defect, bad composition of glue securing microbumps connecting die to package. Thermal cycling in high stress scenarios softened improperly selected underfill and broke microbumps connecting die to package. Repeated heating up can again soften the compound to release stresses and temporarily reconnect broken traces. It never fixes the main issue of broken chip. https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2011837#Problems https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2011837#Problems https://semiaccurate.com/2009/08/21/nvidia-finally-understands-bumpgate/ https://semiaccurate.com/2009/08/21/nvidia-finally-understan... >On July 2, 2009, the date being ironically a year after the notorious 8-K that publicly kicked off bumpgate, the company put up a job listing for a “DIRECTOR OF PACKAGE TECHNOLOGY”. https://notebooks.com/2008/10/10/apple-to-replace-faulty-nvidia-gpus-in-macbook-pros/ https://notebooks.com/2008/10/10/apple-to-replace-faulty-nvi... 2010 saw 820-2850 with N8 (330uF) Tantalum caps frying under the GPU. For 2011 Apple "wisely" switched to AMD and we got 820-2915 with fried AMD GPUs :) Apple is simply BAD at cooling.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
One person on SomethingAwful re-pasted their MBP (of unknown age), and saw reduced temperatures. They never said it was "overheating", Macs (and all Intel/AMD processors...) have thermal throttling so they can't "overheat", and it's normal for thermal paste to degrade within 2-3 years. It's also normal for laptops to get clogged with dust; I saw a huge reduction in temps on my MBP after I cleaned out the heatsinks, having taken the cover off and found them clogged. The person posted pictures of the original paste job from the factory. The amount of paste is not unreasonable, and what was instead evident was that the paste had dried out, which, again, is normal. That didn't stop people from overreacting and declaring a corporation (one famous for obsessively controlling its production chain) to be idiots. It did not have "10x the thermal paste needed." GamersNexus has solidly disproven the "too much paste causes overheating" myth. Excess paste just squirts out the sides, which is not a problem unless it is conductive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUWVVTY63hc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUWVVTY63hc What caused people to really lose their minds was a screengrab that was claimed (with no evidence whatsoever) to be from the repair manual showing wildly inappropriate levels of thermal paste being applied. The screenshot was never confirmed and given the source - again, SomethingAwful - it was almost certainly not the repair manual or factory instructions (the factory instructions wouldn't be in English, for starters...) https://www.techpowerup.com/11403/overheating-macbook-pro-mystery-solved https://www.techpowerup.com/11403/overheating-macbook-pro-my... Seems Pepperidge Farm's memory isn't as good as you thought, or you're pushing some sort of agenda.
- watersb 4y ago
  Useless anecdotes, but I have seen specific product lines with problematic thermals that was a result of incorrect application of thermal compound. I've seen way too much thermal paste on Mac laptop boards. Not just Apple; for a while I think 2007-2010, I was seeing a number of very inexpensive desktop computers with cooked thermal compound on AMD CPUs. These observations aren't worth much, but it doesn't surprise me if a new Mac has thermal issues in the field. Although my M1 MacBook Air is the best, coolest-running machine I have ever had.
- miles 4y ago
  > claimed (with no evidence whatsoever) to be from the repair manual showing wildly inappropriate levels of thermal paste being applied. ... the factory instructions wouldn't be in English The claim was for the service manual, not repair manual: http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=295925 http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=295925 Apple used to produce detailed service manuals in English: https://www.applerepairmanuals.com/the_manuals_are_in_here/iMac_flatpanel.pdf https://www.applerepairmanuals.com/the_manuals_are_in_here/i... More on the overheating issue: https://paulstamatiou.com/macbook-too-hot-to-handle-literally/ https://paulstamatiou.com/macbook-too-hot-to-handle-literall...
Bud 4y ago
I'm pretty sure "Apple" was not adding that thermal paste. ;)
asdff 4y ago
My intel air with the latest redesigned body also throttled constantly. the cooling system wasn't adequate for a mobile ice lake chip.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

teruakohatu 4y ago

I agree, I don't know why it is supposed to be faster than a M1 Pro. But those high temps look brutal, as does the oscillating throttle, also nobody wants a fan running full speed non-stop if possible.

_aavaa_ 4y ago

I thought the same thing, but if you keep scrolling he did do a M1 vs M2 comparison. The M1 did end up hitting 100% on the fans, but capped out at 94˚C instead of 108˚C. It also did end up throttling slightly (dropping to 21.87W from a peek of 24W). The M2 meanwhile throttles from 29.46W to 7.3W. The time comparison was M1: 21 min 40sec, M2: 19 min 40 sec. Much less than you would except given core and spec difference. So yeah, technically the one fan isn't enough for all circumstances. Is exporting 8K footage for 20 minutes of their entry-level laptop the target use-case? And if so, how much would fixing this be worth to the average end user?

savant_penguin 4y ago
Idk I expect my computer to be able to run at 100% without some sort of death clock Blaming bad thermal design on "use case" does not make sense to me. If you'd like to run some intensive numerical programming on your laptop just because, I would find it outrageous for it to shutdown due to thermals. Can other hardware designers use that excuse too? "Oh your software use case is not covered by the cpu voltage regulators", "the power supply was not meant to be on all the time", "the power cable should not be connected for that long", "you should not use 90% of your ram for 4 hours straight, it was not designed for that use case" "Oh the average end user only uses the car 1h/day. This 5h long trip was not the expected use case, that's why it overheated"
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Duty cycle- the ratio of time a component may be powered- is really quite common. Cars can only rev the engine in the red zone for a limited duration. Lasers on CNC machines, welders, engine hoists, etc. all have specific capacities that you shouldn't exceed. Expecting your CPU to run flat-out at 100% indefinitely without reprocussion seems strange to me. Heat is the great killer of electronics, and unless your rig is water cooled I don't know that I've used a laptop before with the thermal management to withstand extended full load- either it throttles down or it damages itself.
  - perryizgr8 4y ago