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Not all types of argument deserve this treatment.
by spacemanmatt 4y ago
Not all types of argument deserve this treatment.
- avindroth 4y agoTrue, but some of your best insights come from steelmanning arguments you initially thought were completely bogus.
- spacemanmatt 4y agoSounds like steelmanning is just another name for thinking things all the way through, then?
- scifibestfi 4y agoHow do you know until you steelman it?
- spacemanmatt 4y agoWhy don't you steelman me and find out.
- LAC-Tech 4y agoAfraid you might change your mind?
- MattRix 4y agoIt is not hard to think of examples where steelmanning would not be worthwhile, such as when someone thinks an entire group of people is inferior. And unfortunately these types of views underly a surprisingly large number of political opinions these days.
- LAC-Tech 4y agoAgain, are you afraid you might change your mind? I like to think I have a pretty good idea of why people - whose ideas I find repulsive - believe what they do. In my mind that means I have the capability to change their mind. The risk I take is that they can change mine.
- XorNot 4y agoWhy are you up and down this thread defending a technique while refusing to ever enunciate a single position you think you understand, or have had your mind changed on? Afraid there might be some really good reasons they're not worth talking about?
- LAC-Tech 4y agoBecause of comments like this, basically.
- hitekker 4y agoIronically, I haven't seen steelmanning demonstrated well in this comment section. Lots of praise, specious examples. The top comment claims that a heated back-and-forth where they recommend steelmanning is a successful discussion. Hmmm. Steelmanning in practice may just be indistinguishable from trolling. The lazy redditor wants to look smarter than other redditors, by making a convoluted argument that no one believes in. It's intellectual posturing dressed up in "good faith".
- spacemanmatt 4y agoYou seem to have confused contrarianism with steelmanning.
- icelancer 4y ago>> such as when someone thinks an entire group of people is inferior A point of steelmanning is that your assumption that this person thinks an entire group of people is inferior might be incorrect.
- watwut 4y agoIt feels good to be superior. And people really really like theries that make them feel superior. They also really really dislike walking away from then, catching any straws to be able to keep that feeling. Your grand plan will fail the moment you finally get to the "incorrect" part. Cause there you dealing with additional feeling of loss you yourself just caused.
- spacemanmatt 4y agoNo, I'm experienced enough to recognize a dishonest/disingenuous argument from the start and while I might pay it a little bit of lip service, I'm not seriously entertaining certain categories of conversation or argumentation.
- apostacy 4y agoYou don't engage in Steelmanning to be nice. It is for your benefit. Demonstrating that you fully understand an argument better than your opponent, and being able to charitably represent them, just makes it all the more devastating when you knock them down. If you really disagree with an argument vehemently, then you should steelman it. Strawmanning makes you look dishonest and fragile, only capable of attacking a weakened form of your opposition. If someone who has really abhorrent opinions tries making their argument, then you are letting them win if you strawman them.
- spacemanmatt 4y agoIf you're so convinced that steelmanning is for the great benefit of everyone then why are you arguing with me instead of steelmanning my perspective? Or is not every position worthy of steelmanning?
- watwut 4y agoThat is not how debates work at all.
- spacemanmatt 4y agoI do not think anyone will disagree with you. I don't think debates are about communication, but I think some people here might be trying to address communication tactics.