4 ms·

I think there are two group opinions in this discussion and both are correct: The concept of Wayland is great and well-implemented. The implementation of Waylan

I think there are two group opinions in this discussion and both are correct: The concept of Wayland is great and well-implemented. The implementation of Wayland is bad. Now if only the first group would trust the second's experiences with Wayland. It really is trash. Firefox will stop updating the window contents but will still accept clicks and keypresses. You can either start a new Firefox process or go to the application switcher to see the updated window contents. OpenSCAD editor has a one second lag between a keypress and the character appearing. Those are the two that affect me everyday.

socceroos 4y ago
In my ~6 years of using Wayland I've never experienced anything like this. In fact, my experience has been that the entire desktop experience was smoother and less buggy. Admittedly, I've steered clear of NVIDIA products which may have helped.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- craftkiller 4y ago
  You also may have a different config. For example, I use fractional scaling on my laptop (1.5x) which means firefox sometimes crashes when I open the menu, but when I'm using my external monitor at 1x scaling it runs fine so you'd never notice. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1693474 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1693474
  - PennRobotics 4y ago
    I have a 30-bit 4K monitor. It's been an adventure learning about environmental flags and how "the root problem is upstream/downstream from our project"
- yw3410 4y ago
  I used Wayland for almost everything (AMD GPU), but the performance for some applications such as Blender are absolutely abysmal currently. I have to switch to X when using those apps.
Sebb767 4y ago
> Firefox will stop updating the window contents but will still accept clicks and keypresses. I've only ever had this behavior with FF running under XWayland. Are you sure FF isn't defaulting to X?
- PennRobotics 4y ago
  No. I'm not sure whether Xwayland or Wayland is used, and that's part of the problem. In about:support, I have MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 but also MOZ_USE_XINPUT2=1, which I haven't noticed until right now. xeyes doesn't respond at all (window freezes) so I can't tell which backend is actually in-use via xeyes. Finally, I'm using the package manager Firefox, and I'm not sure if that's different than the snap/flatpak. In the OpenSCAD case, I've tried installing various qt-related and wayland-related packages and setting QT_QPA_PLATFORM or QT_DEBUG_PLUGINS, but this either ends in a crash or the same slow behavior.
jrm4 4y ago
I trust everyone realizes this is literally the same thing as "ideas are worthless without execution."
- MrWiffles 4y ago
  You're waaaaaay too trusting an individual, my friend. ;-)
Retr0id 4y ago
> Firefox will stop updating the window contents but will still accept clicks and keypresses. You can either start a new Firefox process or go to the application switcher to see the updated window contents. I've actually had this happen on macOS (seems to be occasionally triggered on wake from sleep) - assuming it's the same bug, it might not strictly be a wayland issue.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> The concept of Wayland is great and well-implemented. The implementation of Wayland is bad. I'm going to disagree; some Wayland implementations of Wayland are good, but the concept is bad. Wayland is a beautiful, elegant protocol that does almost nothing, instead delegating everything more interesting than "display these pixels" to other protocols. That could have worked, but in reality nothing else was actually standardized (n.b. if a "standard" isn't implemented by GNOME, KDE, and libroots, it's not actually a standard), so there is no useful "Wayland" only many Wayland implementations. If you pick an implementation that covers every feature you want, it's great! And if you ever want anything it didn't implement, or ever want to use software targeting a different implementation, you're stuck. Thus, I say Wayland is a bad concept, because it ensures that everyone will be forever reimplementing everything, incompatibly.
- kaba0 4y ago
  > Thus, I say Wayland is a bad concept, because it ensures that everyone will be forever reimplementing everything, incompatibly. Why do you think that? There are some arguments on bleeding edge protocol proposals, but once they are wide-spread enough they seem to get implemented by everyone equally well - causing apps to depend on them and solidifying those. I don’t see any problem here, the slight slowness of certain proposals is simply the bazaar style development where unlike Apple, linux can’t just decide on a fix thing, it has to get a certain network effect going for it firts.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > Why do you think that? There are some arguments on bleeding edge protocol proposals, but once they are wide-spread enough they seem to get implemented by everyone equally well - causing apps to depend on them and solidifying those. Bleeding edge? As far as I can tell, GNOME and wlroots still have incompatible APIs for screenshots. > it has to get a certain network effect going for it When it takes years to get network effects for little things like screenshots and screen sharing, I certainly see a problem here.
- vetinari 4y ago
  It is lesson from X11. X11 has many things, for example drawing primitives in core; nobody uses it, but it has to be there, because it was specified so. Wayland extensions, not being mandatory, solve exactly this problem - if something is not used, it could be removed and clients will know very well, that it is not there.

socceroos 4y ago

In my ~6 years of using Wayland I've never experienced anything like this. In fact, my experience has been that the entire desktop experience was smoother and less buggy. Admittedly, I've steered clear of NVIDIA products which may have helped.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
craftkiller 4y ago
You also may have a different config. For example, I use fractional scaling on my laptop (1.5x) which means firefox sometimes crashes when I open the menu, but when I'm using my external monitor at 1x scaling it runs fine so you'd never notice. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1693474 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1693474
- PennRobotics 4y ago
  I have a 30-bit 4K monitor. It's been an adventure learning about environmental flags and how "the root problem is upstream/downstream from our project"
yw3410 4y ago
I used Wayland for almost everything (AMD GPU), but the performance for some applications such as Blender are absolutely abysmal currently. I have to switch to X when using those apps.

Sebb767 4y ago

> Firefox will stop updating the window contents but will still accept clicks and keypresses. I've only ever had this behavior with FF running under XWayland. Are you sure FF isn't defaulting to X?

PennRobotics 4y ago
No. I'm not sure whether Xwayland or Wayland is used, and that's part of the problem. In about:support, I have MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 but also MOZ_USE_XINPUT2=1, which I haven't noticed until right now. xeyes doesn't respond at all (window freezes) so I can't tell which backend is actually in-use via xeyes. Finally, I'm using the package manager Firefox, and I'm not sure if that's different than the snap/flatpak. In the OpenSCAD case, I've tried installing various qt-related and wayland-related packages and setting QT_QPA_PLATFORM or QT_DEBUG_PLUGINS, but this either ends in a crash or the same slow behavior.

jrm4 4y ago

I trust everyone realizes this is literally the same thing as "ideas are worthless without execution."

MrWiffles 4y ago
You're waaaaaay too trusting an individual, my friend. ;-)

Retr0id 4y ago

> Firefox will stop updating the window contents but will still accept clicks and keypresses. You can either start a new Firefox process or go to the application switcher to see the updated window contents. I've actually had this happen on macOS (seems to be occasionally triggered on wake from sleep) - assuming it's the same bug, it might not strictly be a wayland issue.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

> The concept of Wayland is great and well-implemented. The implementation of Wayland is bad. I'm going to disagree; some Wayland implementations of Wayland are good, but the concept is bad. Wayland is a beautiful, elegant protocol that does almost nothing, instead delegating everything more interesting than "display these pixels" to other protocols. That could have worked, but in reality nothing else was actually standardized (n.b. if a "standard" isn't implemented by GNOME, KDE, and libroots, it's not actually a standard), so there is no useful "Wayland" only many Wayland implementations. If you pick an implementation that covers every feature you want, it's great! And if you ever want anything it didn't implement, or ever want to use software targeting a different implementation, you're stuck. Thus, I say Wayland is a bad concept, because it ensures that everyone will be forever reimplementing everything, incompatibly.

kaba0 4y ago
> Thus, I say Wayland is a bad concept, because it ensures that everyone will be forever reimplementing everything, incompatibly. Why do you think that? There are some arguments on bleeding edge protocol proposals, but once they are wide-spread enough they seem to get implemented by everyone equally well - causing apps to depend on them and solidifying those. I don’t see any problem here, the slight slowness of certain proposals is simply the bazaar style development where unlike Apple, linux can’t just decide on a fix thing, it has to get a certain network effect going for it firts.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > Why do you think that? There are some arguments on bleeding edge protocol proposals, but once they are wide-spread enough they seem to get implemented by everyone equally well - causing apps to depend on them and solidifying those. Bleeding edge? As far as I can tell, GNOME and wlroots still have incompatible APIs for screenshots. > it has to get a certain network effect going for it When it takes years to get network effects for little things like screenshots and screen sharing, I certainly see a problem here.
vetinari 4y ago
It is lesson from X11. X11 has many things, for example drawing primitives in core; nobody uses it, but it has to be there, because it was specified so. Wayland extensions, not being mandatory, solve exactly this problem - if something is not used, it could be removed and clients will know very well, that it is not there.