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"all of this time and money wasted on driverless cars has been a complete failure." That's quite a stretch. If you think the money would be better spent elsewh

"all of this time and money wasted on driverless cars has been a complete failure." That's quite a stretch. If you think the money would be better spent elsewhere, ok. But to call it a failure is silly. Personally, I think driverless taxis making car ownership less necessary will be a huge plus. It will also make life a lot better for those due to age (too young or too old) or other issues not being able to drive. I remember the space program being credited as contributing so much to the economy via by-product technology. Certainly self-driving cars contributes to automating tons of things beyond driving people around on public streets. After all, self-driving car tech is really just a subset of robotics. Of course if you are against automation in all senses (e.g. they're putting people out of work!") that's a different discussion. "the US culture of using a car for everyday transportation is fucking insane, wasteful, and contributes to the rising cost of living across the US (not just SF)." Ok, but to get away from that you need gradual steps. I'd say it is far less insane to call a robo-taxi when needed (possibly a van-sized one that carries many people at once, which become practical once more people are willing to give up owning cars), than it is to actually own a car that sits idle, possibly on city streets, 95% of the time. Also there will be robo-deliveries, so you don't need to use a car for such basic things as going to the grocery store. This can actually be far cheaper for the stores, since there is no need for large spaces consumers can walk around in. The whole process can be automated, including filling your order, putting it on a truck, and putting it on your front porch (or in some kind of box accessible to the bot). Stuff like this is all part of the same technological effort.

Barrin92 4y ago
>but to get away from that you need gradual steps Given that you bring up the space program in the same post I'll stick with the metaphor and point out that you can't go to the moon by climbing up trees, or as Russ Ackoff said, doing the wrong thing right is worse than doing the right thing wrong, because making the wrong thing more efficient just makes things worse. If you want fully automated, efficient transport this technology already exists, it's train and subway systems. We even know how to virtually automate them 100% already, 24/7. With the tens of bilions if not more spent on driverless cars you could have actually rebuilt a decent chunk of infrastructure. Having individual people drive around in two tons of steel to buy a bag of groceries is fundamentally stupid and its destroying cities, whether the car is electric or automated doesn't matter that much and there's no gradual change away from it, only a disruptive one.
- charcircuit 4y ago
  >If you want fully automated, efficient transport this technology already exists, it's train and subway systems You still need cars for going from point A to the train station and from the other train station to point B.
  - fluctor 4y ago
    That's what buses, bicycles, and your feet are for, in many places.
  - Barrin92 4y ago
    I'm in my 30s and I don't have a drivers license. You don't need a car at all in any city that's built around public transportation. I've lived in Tokyo for many years, the greater metropolitan area has something like 38 million people, and I think a majority of households does not own a car in the prefecture. God gave us two legs, they work wonders between train stations.
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      Not everyone lives in a city. I don't want to spend hours walking to the nearest equivalent of a konbini and back.
  - asdff 4y ago
    I use my skateboard for that. Fits between my legs on the train and under the desk at work.
- robbrown451 4y ago
  Trains and subways don't get you from anywhere to anywhere. They are incredibly expensive and take many years to add new lines, disrupting all kinds of things in the meantime. And they often take way longer to get you places. My time has value. There's a million things I'd rather be doing than waiting for a train, or waiting while a train makes tons of stops along the way that a car wouldn't. And are you expecting me to carry bags of groceries on the train? How's that work? I sure hope the train has a stop in front of my house. "With the tens of billions if not more spent on driverless cars you could have actually rebuilt a decent chunk of infrastructure." According to this, it costs 3 billion a mile for subway. Maybe that's an extreme.... but still. You know how many miles of road there are that are currently used by cars? https://sf.curbed.com/2018/6/18/17464616/bay-area-subway-train-rail-costs-price-bart-muni https://sf.curbed.com/2018/6/18/17464616/bay-area-subway-tra... Also, one nice thing about software compared to trains: once you've built the software, each additional copy costs nothing. And the vast majority of the self-driving car initiative is in developing the software. Also, trains don't help with avoiding things like making grocery runs altogether. Self driving cars (and other robotics that are benefactors of the technology) can make it practical to eliminate the vast majority of grocery shopping and other typical errands, having a robotic system deliver it to your door more cheaply than going to an old-school grocery store. As for your space analogy.... sorry, but this is just different. This deals with existing infrastructure, existing culture, and so on. We need a smooth transition.
ar_lan 4y ago
> Of course if you are against automation in all senses (e.g. they're putting people out of work!") that's a different discussion. I usually just tell them to go churn butter and stop driving their own car if that's a real position they have. I don't think I've ever heard a sillier position, ever.

Barrin92 4y ago

>but to get away from that you need gradual steps Given that you bring up the space program in the same post I'll stick with the metaphor and point out that you can't go to the moon by climbing up trees, or as Russ Ackoff said, doing the wrong thing right is worse than doing the right thing wrong, because making the wrong thing more efficient just makes things worse. If you want fully automated, efficient transport this technology already exists, it's train and subway systems. We even know how to virtually automate them 100% already, 24/7. With the tens of bilions if not more spent on driverless cars you could have actually rebuilt a decent chunk of infrastructure. Having individual people drive around in two tons of steel to buy a bag of groceries is fundamentally stupid and its destroying cities, whether the car is electric or automated doesn't matter that much and there's no gradual change away from it, only a disruptive one.

charcircuit 4y ago
>If you want fully automated, efficient transport this technology already exists, it's train and subway systems You still need cars for going from point A to the train station and from the other train station to point B.
- fluctor 4y ago
  That's what buses, bicycles, and your feet are for, in many places.
- Barrin92 4y ago
  I'm in my 30s and I don't have a drivers license. You don't need a car at all in any city that's built around public transportation. I've lived in Tokyo for many years, the greater metropolitan area has something like 38 million people, and I think a majority of households does not own a car in the prefecture. God gave us two legs, they work wonders between train stations.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    Not everyone lives in a city. I don't want to spend hours walking to the nearest equivalent of a konbini and back.
- asdff 4y ago
  I use my skateboard for that. Fits between my legs on the train and under the desk at work.
robbrown451 4y ago
Trains and subways don't get you from anywhere to anywhere. They are incredibly expensive and take many years to add new lines, disrupting all kinds of things in the meantime. And they often take way longer to get you places. My time has value. There's a million things I'd rather be doing than waiting for a train, or waiting while a train makes tons of stops along the way that a car wouldn't. And are you expecting me to carry bags of groceries on the train? How's that work? I sure hope the train has a stop in front of my house. "With the tens of billions if not more spent on driverless cars you could have actually rebuilt a decent chunk of infrastructure." According to this, it costs 3 billion a mile for subway. Maybe that's an extreme.... but still. You know how many miles of road there are that are currently used by cars? https://sf.curbed.com/2018/6/18/17464616/bay-area-subway-train-rail-costs-price-bart-muni https://sf.curbed.com/2018/6/18/17464616/bay-area-subway-tra... Also, one nice thing about software compared to trains: once you've built the software, each additional copy costs nothing. And the vast majority of the self-driving car initiative is in developing the software. Also, trains don't help with avoiding things like making grocery runs altogether. Self driving cars (and other robotics that are benefactors of the technology) can make it practical to eliminate the vast majority of grocery shopping and other typical errands, having a robotic system deliver it to your door more cheaply than going to an old-school grocery store. As for your space analogy.... sorry, but this is just different. This deals with existing infrastructure, existing culture, and so on. We need a smooth transition.

ar_lan 4y ago

> Of course if you are against automation in all senses (e.g. they're putting people out of work!") that's a different discussion. I usually just tell them to go churn butter and stop driving their own car if that's a real position they have. I don't think I've ever heard a sillier position, ever.