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Lactase persistence is regulated by genetic mutations, not gut microbes. The negative symptoms of lactose intolerance is exactly due to lactose being able to re

Lactase persistence is regulated by genetic mutations, not gut microbes. The negative symptoms of lactose intolerance is exactly due to lactose being able to reach the gut and making the microbes there flourish by digesting lactose, creating large quantities of gas and other metabolic byproducts that cause flatulence, diarrhea, etc. People don't spontaneously become lactose intolerant just because they stopped eating something. Koreans eat lots of fermented vegetables, yet why are 70%-100% of Koreans estimated to be lactose intolerant? Why are you suggesting lactose intolerance is some new condition that arose as a product of modern life? Lactose intolerance is simply the default setting for the majority of humans around the world for most of history. Yogurt/kefir occupies very large segments in most developed countries' grocery store shelves and new brands/varieties pop up every year. How has this industry not collapsed if "a lot of people outright refuse yogurt" according to you? The development and marketing of lactose free dairy products in recent years is simply the dairy industry exploring new market segments, because substantial portions of the population do not have lactase persistence. Even societies whose culinary traditions involved heavy consumption of dairy do not have 100% lactase persistence. It's not some weird conspiracy aimed at making modern humans "weak". The lack of lactose is not significant enough to change the nutritional content of dairy products.

AussieWog93 4y ago
Holy shit, that is the most over-the-top, aggressive response to a guy being factually incorrect about yoghurt that I've ever read.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  Can you point exactly which part was "over-the-top" or "aggressive"? Or is calling out that factually incorrect things are, well, factually incorrect somehow unacceptable nowadays? The world needs less pseudoscience misinfo, not more.
  - justsomeguy123 4y ago
    I re-read your post and while it's not overly aggressive it's the difference in tone and approach that get you. The original poster was like the hippie encouraging home-made yogurt and you were like the school principal saying 'this is bull, store yogurt has scientifically the same benefits'. PS: I also learned while writing this I can't spell yogurt. Thanks spellchecker!
    - ssnistfajen 4y ago
      Sadly the topic of lactose intolerance is rife with misinfo, biases, and dogwhistles, hence my rapid-fire questions in the previous comment. Most commercial yogurt products sold in grocery stores today are heavily laden with sugar and so mildly fermented that their probiotic quanlities are nearly nullified. Commercial unflavoured kefir is slightly better, but the overall probiotic effect is still questionable since we don't have affirmative answers on how much of the microbes can survive through our stomach acid, or how much of them can establish in our guts vs. heading straight for the exit like passengers on a roller coaster. As for the spelling of yoghurt there's no correct version honestly, they are all transliterations of the same Turkish word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogurt#Etymology_and_spelling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogurt#Etymology_and_spelling
      - collyw 4y ago
        The majority of nutritional science seems full of bullshit to be honest. I remember how we laughed at the Atkins diet when it first appeared as well all knew so well that the science told us fat was bad. Now Keto diet seems to be gaining a lot of acceptance, and refined sugar is the real enemy. Refined sugar being bad for you seems to be one of the few things that is agreed on. Will that change in another 20 years?
    - collyw 4y ago
      If you are worried about people's tone and approach, go over to 4chan for a bit then come back here. It should toughen you up.
      - 4y ago
  - doc_gunthrop 4y ago
    > The world needs less pseudoscience misinfo, not more. Fully agreed. I appreciate the stern yet information-laden correction. It's certainly much better than hearing specious claims based on conjecture/misinformation that only seems plausible to the uninformed. Also, IMO it did not sound "over-the-top" or "aggressive" at all. Some people are just so absurdly oversensitive that a simply direct method of speaking (or in this case, writing) is taken as hostile.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      the "It's not some weird conspiracy aimed at making modern humans "weak"." bit seemed a bit much (and out of nowhere unless there was an edit in the original)
      - ssnistfajen 4y ago
        The insinuation in the very original comment that modern humans are abandoning fermented foods en masse and "even becoming" lactose intolerant (as if adulthood lactose intolerance is somehow a new condition rather than the default for pretty much all mammals in existence) was clearly in-line with the pseudoscientific conspiracist misinformation wave that modern lifestyle supported by technological advances is making humans regress somehow, rather than elevating overall levels of health and turning previous morbidity factors into manageable nuisances.
- jancsika 4y ago
  Yet they are all reasonable questions. I'd be interested in knowing how asdff arrived at the idea that a sizable portion of lactose intolerance comes from people neglecting to fertilize their microbes with sauerkraut, pickled cabbage, or yogurt.
bardworx 4y ago
Honest question: I grew up on a farm in former USSR. We milked cows daily, when I was a kid. Back then, I never knew about lactose intolerance but to be fair, this wasn’t a topic discussed. Considering I know nothing about this, and you seem like you do, are there any studies that looked at links between lactose intolerance and fresh milk produce? Reason I say “fresh” is because we never refrigerated the milk. In the morning you get milk, cream is taken off top, by next morning you have a kefir like drink. All was consumed. There was no processing. I know there is a study[0] that link exposure to farm animals being linked to less allergic reactions but never seen anything about milk. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7744242/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7744242/
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  Fermented milk is lower in lactose because some of the lactose have already been broken down by microbes in the fermentation process. https://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20030530/kefir-helps-lactose-intolerance https://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20030530/kefir-helps-la... Lactose intolerance in many cases also doesn't have a clear cut threshold nor is it common to be hypersensitive where a single drop of milk causes projectile vomitting. Many people who are technically lactose intolerant (as in they don't self product lactase in adulthood) can consume some amount of dairy without any symptoms. Otherwise dairy products such as milk, yogurt, and ice cream would not have existed in most of Asia. https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(87)80023-1/fulltext https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(87)... >"However, when lactose loads of up to 12 g are fed, symptoms can be minimal or absent." >"Tolerance to yogurt, acidophilus milk, and other microbe-containing dairy foods has been suggested and is thought to be due to either a low lactose content or in vivo autodigestion by microbial β-galactosidase."
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Fresh milk is linked with some viruses that can cause autoimmune diseases like type-1 diabetes and bunch of other stuff. Always makes my eyes roll when I hear people driving hours just to get fresh farm milk.
  - 4y ago
ls15 4y ago
> Lactase persistence is regulated by genetic mutations, not gut microbes. > Koreans eat lots of fermented vegetables, yet why are 70%-100% of Koreans estimated to be lactose intolerant? On the other hand, there is Mongolia: > But a closer look at cultural practices around the world has challenged that picture. In modern Mongolia, for example, traditional herders get more than a third of their calories from dairy products. They milk seven kinds of mammals, yielding diverse cheeses, yogurts, and other fermented milk products, including alcohol made from mare's milk. “If you can milk it, they do in Mongolia,” Warinner says. And yet 95% of those people are lactose intolerant. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.362.6415.626 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.362.6415.626 Even though most products are fermented for shelf life, unfermented milk is widely consumed by Mongolians to this day.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  So how exactly does the diet of Mongolians prove lactase persistence is not fundamentally genetic? Lactose intolerance isn't something like celiacs where a dash of the substance causes adverse reactions. Most of Asia still sell non-lactose-free dairy in supermarkets. Look up any Youtube video of Korean street foods and you will see dairy products such as processed cheese, yogurt, mil, and ice cream are ubiquitous in Korea. That doesn't detract from the fact that the vast majority of the population are lactose intolerant in the definition that they no longer produce enzymes that can break down lactose once reaching adulthood.
  - Ericson2314 4y ago
    Yeah and none of the foods on the list was raw unfermented milk.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ls15 4y ago
    > So how exactly does the diet of Mongolians prove lactase persistence is not fundamentally genetic? It doesn't, but I think it indicates that genetic lactase persistence is not the only factor that affects lactose intolerance. Otherwise, how do you call a lactose-intolerant person that can tolerate significant amounts of lactose?
kstenerud 4y ago
I developed lactose intolerance sometime during the 5 years I lived in Japan. I only noticed after returning to Canada when I resumed my old diet. I can still generally eat yogurt and kefir without symptoms, but I can't drink milk anymore without taking lactase tablets.
m10i 4y ago
Would you be able to recommend a yogurt brand I could try out solely for the gut-related health benefits? Or if not yogurt specifically, anything that might even be better.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  Highly dependent on what local brands are available. Look for unflavoured kefir or plain yogurt that isn't 0% fat.

AussieWog93 4y ago

Holy shit, that is the most over-the-top, aggressive response to a guy being factually incorrect about yoghurt that I've ever read.

ssnistfajen 4y ago
Can you point exactly which part was "over-the-top" or "aggressive"? Or is calling out that factually incorrect things are, well, factually incorrect somehow unacceptable nowadays? The world needs less pseudoscience misinfo, not more.
- justsomeguy123 4y ago
  I re-read your post and while it's not overly aggressive it's the difference in tone and approach that get you. The original poster was like the hippie encouraging home-made yogurt and you were like the school principal saying 'this is bull, store yogurt has scientifically the same benefits'. PS: I also learned while writing this I can't spell yogurt. Thanks spellchecker!
  - ssnistfajen 4y ago
    Sadly the topic of lactose intolerance is rife with misinfo, biases, and dogwhistles, hence my rapid-fire questions in the previous comment. Most commercial yogurt products sold in grocery stores today are heavily laden with sugar and so mildly fermented that their probiotic quanlities are nearly nullified. Commercial unflavoured kefir is slightly better, but the overall probiotic effect is still questionable since we don't have affirmative answers on how much of the microbes can survive through our stomach acid, or how much of them can establish in our guts vs. heading straight for the exit like passengers on a roller coaster. As for the spelling of yoghurt there's no correct version honestly, they are all transliterations of the same Turkish word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogurt#Etymology_and_spelling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogurt#Etymology_and_spelling
    - collyw 4y ago
      The majority of nutritional science seems full of bullshit to be honest. I remember how we laughed at the Atkins diet when it first appeared as well all knew so well that the science told us fat was bad. Now Keto diet seems to be gaining a lot of acceptance, and refined sugar is the real enemy. Refined sugar being bad for you seems to be one of the few things that is agreed on. Will that change in another 20 years?
  - collyw 4y ago
    If you are worried about people's tone and approach, go over to 4chan for a bit then come back here. It should toughen you up.
    - 4y ago
- doc_gunthrop 4y ago
  > The world needs less pseudoscience misinfo, not more. Fully agreed. I appreciate the stern yet information-laden correction. It's certainly much better than hearing specious claims based on conjecture/misinformation that only seems plausible to the uninformed. Also, IMO it did not sound "over-the-top" or "aggressive" at all. Some people are just so absurdly oversensitive that a simply direct method of speaking (or in this case, writing) is taken as hostile.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    the "It's not some weird conspiracy aimed at making modern humans "weak"." bit seemed a bit much (and out of nowhere unless there was an edit in the original)
    - ssnistfajen 4y ago
      The insinuation in the very original comment that modern humans are abandoning fermented foods en masse and "even becoming" lactose intolerant (as if adulthood lactose intolerance is somehow a new condition rather than the default for pretty much all mammals in existence) was clearly in-line with the pseudoscientific conspiracist misinformation wave that modern lifestyle supported by technological advances is making humans regress somehow, rather than elevating overall levels of health and turning previous morbidity factors into manageable nuisances.
jancsika 4y ago
Yet they are all reasonable questions. I'd be interested in knowing how asdff arrived at the idea that a sizable portion of lactose intolerance comes from people neglecting to fertilize their microbes with sauerkraut, pickled cabbage, or yogurt.

bardworx 4y ago

Honest question: I grew up on a farm in former USSR. We milked cows daily, when I was a kid. Back then, I never knew about lactose intolerance but to be fair, this wasn’t a topic discussed. Considering I know nothing about this, and you seem like you do, are there any studies that looked at links between lactose intolerance and fresh milk produce? Reason I say “fresh” is because we never refrigerated the milk. In the morning you get milk, cream is taken off top, by next morning you have a kefir like drink. All was consumed. There was no processing. I know there is a study[0] that link exposure to farm animals being linked to less allergic reactions but never seen anything about milk. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7744242/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7744242/

ssnistfajen 4y ago
Fermented milk is lower in lactose because some of the lactose have already been broken down by microbes in the fermentation process. https://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20030530/kefir-helps-lactose-intolerance https://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20030530/kefir-helps-la... Lactose intolerance in many cases also doesn't have a clear cut threshold nor is it common to be hypersensitive where a single drop of milk causes projectile vomitting. Many people who are technically lactose intolerant (as in they don't self product lactase in adulthood) can consume some amount of dairy without any symptoms. Otherwise dairy products such as milk, yogurt, and ice cream would not have existed in most of Asia. https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(87)80023-1/fulltext https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(87)... >"However, when lactose loads of up to 12 g are fed, symptoms can be minimal or absent." >"Tolerance to yogurt, acidophilus milk, and other microbe-containing dairy foods has been suggested and is thought to be due to either a low lactose content or in vivo autodigestion by microbial β-galactosidase."
dzhiurgis 4y ago
Fresh milk is linked with some viruses that can cause autoimmune diseases like type-1 diabetes and bunch of other stuff. Always makes my eyes roll when I hear people driving hours just to get fresh farm milk.
- 4y ago

ls15 4y ago

> Lactase persistence is regulated by genetic mutations, not gut microbes. > Koreans eat lots of fermented vegetables, yet why are 70%-100% of Koreans estimated to be lactose intolerant? On the other hand, there is Mongolia: > But a closer look at cultural practices around the world has challenged that picture. In modern Mongolia, for example, traditional herders get more than a third of their calories from dairy products. They milk seven kinds of mammals, yielding diverse cheeses, yogurts, and other fermented milk products, including alcohol made from mare's milk. “If you can milk it, they do in Mongolia,” Warinner says. And yet 95% of those people are lactose intolerant. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.362.6415.626 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.362.6415.626 Even though most products are fermented for shelf life, unfermented milk is widely consumed by Mongolians to this day.

ssnistfajen 4y ago
So how exactly does the diet of Mongolians prove lactase persistence is not fundamentally genetic? Lactose intolerance isn't something like celiacs where a dash of the substance causes adverse reactions. Most of Asia still sell non-lactose-free dairy in supermarkets. Look up any Youtube video of Korean street foods and you will see dairy products such as processed cheese, yogurt, mil, and ice cream are ubiquitous in Korea. That doesn't detract from the fact that the vast majority of the population are lactose intolerant in the definition that they no longer produce enzymes that can break down lactose once reaching adulthood.
- Ericson2314 4y ago
  Yeah and none of the foods on the list was raw unfermented milk.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ls15 4y ago
  > So how exactly does the diet of Mongolians prove lactase persistence is not fundamentally genetic? It doesn't, but I think it indicates that genetic lactase persistence is not the only factor that affects lactose intolerance. Otherwise, how do you call a lactose-intolerant person that can tolerate significant amounts of lactose?

kstenerud 4y ago

I developed lactose intolerance sometime during the 5 years I lived in Japan. I only noticed after returning to Canada when I resumed my old diet. I can still generally eat yogurt and kefir without symptoms, but I can't drink milk anymore without taking lactase tablets.

m10i 4y ago

Would you be able to recommend a yogurt brand I could try out solely for the gut-related health benefits? Or if not yogurt specifically, anything that might even be better.

ssnistfajen 4y ago
Highly dependent on what local brands are available. Look for unflavoured kefir or plain yogurt that isn't 0% fat.