4 ms·

> speed, security, privacy, trust Every single one of these factors is significantly better in Bitcoin than in the legacy payments system. Your proposed trade

by wyager 4y ago

> speed, security, privacy, trust Every single one of these factors is significantly better in Bitcoin than in the legacy payments system. Your proposed tradeoff is not based on reality. The only one of these things that might plausibly be called "better" for legacy payments is speed, but A) this is no longer plausible at all with lightning and B) any comparable appearance of speed in a legacy payments system is fictitious. The fiction holds up only if you are a "casual" user of the system, transacting in small amounts of money in non-complicated transactions. The costs even of this fictitious speed are high, but they are hidden from casual users.

uncomputation 4y ago
> Speed Bitcoin can handle 7 transactions per second, on average. VISA can handle 1,700. > Security Your bank account is secured with a password. If compromised, you can prove your identity in person at a bank with government documents and obviously physical appearance. Bitcoin has one method of authentication, the signing key, and once you lose it, you have lost your account. > Privacy Every transaction you make as well as your balance is public on a blockchain. Your bank account is private only to you and the bank itself. > Trust This one is more subjective and I won’t really comment if I trust Chase or Coinbase more, but I will say this is somewhat ironic on a post about how Coinbase is selling IP data to ICE.
- wyager 4y ago
  > Bitcoin can handle 7 transactions per second Look up Lightning. To be honest, saying this is a pretty reliable reverse-shibboleth that you have no idea what you're on about. > Your bank account is secured with a password. secp256k1 is a lot stronger than a shitty bank website. > the signing key, and once you lose it, you have lost your account Good thing we have invented backups. Even multisig if you wan to get fancy. > Every transaction you make as well as your balance is public on a blockchain. On a pseudonymous address that's difficult to impossible to correlate with an individual, and effectively impossible when using lightning. > Your bank account is private only to you and the bank itself. And the state comptroller, and the police, and the bank's advertising partners, and any number of federal agencies, and anyone who looks at frequent bank data leaks, and... > This one is more subjective and I won’t really comment if I trust Chase or Coinbase more Do I need to explain why it's not accurate to conflate coinbase with bitcoin, or was this just for rhetorical effect?
- thesz 4y ago
  >Speed Bitcoin has Lightning network which is peer-to-peer and is quite fast. >Security It is up to you on how to generate your keys. You can use your passport number combined with whatever, you can split your secret between notaries (which would require your ID just like banks), etc. > Privacy Bitcoin has Lightning network which is offchain. > Trust Here you equate Coinbase with Bitcoin. I think it is wrong to do that, on the brink of logical fallacy.
- jimmydorry 4y ago
  > Bitcoin can handle 7 transactions per second, on average. VISA can handle 1,700. You're not comparing the same thing. A Bitcoin transaction that makes its way into a block is settled within ~10 minutes and irreversible in ~60 minutes. A VISA transaction is an IOU between the customer, VISA and the merchant. The merchant won't have settled funds for up to 90 days. VISA settles with the customer anywhere between a day or week, but these transactions are reversible for up to 90 days. VISA settles between bank accounts at best daily. If we are comparing like for like, use of the Bitcoin Lightning network is far closer to the service offers of VISA, and the lightning network scales the Bitcoin network far beyond 7 tps. >I won’t really comment if I trust Chase or Coinbase Bitcoin gives you the option to trust nobody. You are able to interact with the Bitcoin ledger without trusting any intermediary, even if the majority of people will choose not to. This is not an option with the existing financial system.
grey-area 4y ago
Let’s compare the most popular cryptocurrency: 1. Speed - 1s vs 10 mins for Bitcoin 2. Security - Money guaranteed by banks and governments vs do your own security or trust a dodgy exchange 3. Private transactions vs public ledger 4. Trust - counter-parties from merchants to banks are known and have a stake in the system 5. Fees - free instant transfers vs $1-2 per tx 6. Taxes… You’re right there is no comparison but it’s not the current payments system which is left eating dust, it’s bitcoin. The speed you decry as fictitious is there because of trusted counterparties and is very real. And there’s always a promise of new technology to fix bitcoin but the world has moved on and the only ones left are the moonbois and hodlers, and none of them even care about the currency except as a fairytale to sell it on.
- wyager 4y ago
  > Speed - 1s vs 10 mins for Bitcoin This is a clear indicator that you aren't at all familiar with the payments industry, and probably not familiar with Bitcoin either. There is no extant fiat payment system that settles in 1 second. You are the "Casual user" I was talking about who doesn't know how e.g. credit cards work behind the scenes. If you want any semblance of payment finality in a fiat system, it's going to take days to months. Bitcoin is ~10 minutes on chain, <1s on Lightning. > Security - Money guaranteed by banks and governments vs do your own security or trust a dodgy exchange "Guaranteed" is pulling a lot of weight here. What, exactly, do you think "guaranteed" means? > Private transactions vs public ledger "Private" transaction visible to any government agency, the bank's data/ad partners, in any of the abundantly available financial data leaks, vs a public ledger with strong pseudonymity or a totally opaque mesh network on Lightning. > Trust - counter-parties from merchants to banks are known and have a stake in the system I trust asymmetric key crypto more than I trust HSBC. > Fees - free instant transfers vs $1-2 per tx Fiat transfers are neither 'free' nor 'instant', in any meaningful capacity. Do some research on e.g. credit card settlement cycles. "Months" is more accurate. Credit card (along with most other widely used fiat payment gateways) charge usually something like 25 cents + 2.5%. Bitcoin is (on-chain) a few cents + 0%. Lightning is something like 0.01 cents + 0%. It only looks cheaper because the details of what's actually going on have been (intentionally, for marketing purposes) hidden from casual users. > The speed you decry as fictitious is there because of trusted counterparties and is very real. Again, look up how payment settlement cycles work. You are the type of person I was describing who believes in the fiction. I don't blame you; unless you are a "power user" of the fiat system or have done a lot of research, it's not clear why you would notice.
jakelazaroff 4y ago
> The fiction holds up only if you are a "casual" user of the system, transacting in small amounts of money in non-complicated transactions. The costs even of this fictitious speed are high, but they are hidden from casual users. To be clear, what sort of transactions are you referring to here? If you mean things like buying a bagel, or clothes, or groceries — the vast majority of transactions, for which the system should be optimized — then the existing centralized system is extremely successful.
- wyager 4y ago
  Yes, no argument from me that the fiat system is adequate for buying a bagel. If all you're ever doing is engaging in small-scale consumption, there's not a ton of reason you personally would care about or even notice a transition away from fiat payment systems. Realistically, the UX of payments and money management will not change for 90% of people (who aren't doing anything interesting with money and don't have a lot of it). This is fine; we're talking about swapping out the back-end for people who actually have to deal with it.
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    The issue, with regard to people who have a lot of money or want to do “interesting” things with it, is that many of us do not trust those people. So when you say “hey, everything will be the same for you, but it’ll make things easier for those people”, I instantly become suspicious of the change you’re trying to effect. Because, when those people try to get cute with the economy, the upside for “casual users” (aka most people) is low to nonexistent — and the potential downside is very high.
    - jboy55 4y ago
      We're giving the keys to our financial system to crypto-bros who we're supposed to 'trust' because they claim to 'understand' how crypto works. Yet their investment advice is to buy and hold, while they pump and dump their ICOs in order to afford their lambos.

by wyager 4y ago

uncomputation 4y ago

> Speed Bitcoin can handle 7 transactions per second, on average. VISA can handle 1,700. > Security Your bank account is secured with a password. If compromised, you can prove your identity in person at a bank with government documents and obviously physical appearance. Bitcoin has one method of authentication, the signing key, and once you lose it, you have lost your account. > Privacy Every transaction you make as well as your balance is public on a blockchain. Your bank account is private only to you and the bank itself. > Trust This one is more subjective and I won’t really comment if I trust Chase or Coinbase more, but I will say this is somewhat ironic on a post about how Coinbase is selling IP data to ICE.

wyager 4y ago
> Bitcoin can handle 7 transactions per second Look up Lightning. To be honest, saying this is a pretty reliable reverse-shibboleth that you have no idea what you're on about. > Your bank account is secured with a password. secp256k1 is a lot stronger than a shitty bank website. > the signing key, and once you lose it, you have lost your account Good thing we have invented backups. Even multisig if you wan to get fancy. > Every transaction you make as well as your balance is public on a blockchain. On a pseudonymous address that's difficult to impossible to correlate with an individual, and effectively impossible when using lightning. > Your bank account is private only to you and the bank itself. And the state comptroller, and the police, and the bank's advertising partners, and any number of federal agencies, and anyone who looks at frequent bank data leaks, and... > This one is more subjective and I won’t really comment if I trust Chase or Coinbase more Do I need to explain why it's not accurate to conflate coinbase with bitcoin, or was this just for rhetorical effect?
thesz 4y ago
>Speed Bitcoin has Lightning network which is peer-to-peer and is quite fast. >Security It is up to you on how to generate your keys. You can use your passport number combined with whatever, you can split your secret between notaries (which would require your ID just like banks), etc. > Privacy Bitcoin has Lightning network which is offchain. > Trust Here you equate Coinbase with Bitcoin. I think it is wrong to do that, on the brink of logical fallacy.
jimmydorry 4y ago
> Bitcoin can handle 7 transactions per second, on average. VISA can handle 1,700. You're not comparing the same thing. A Bitcoin transaction that makes its way into a block is settled within ~10 minutes and irreversible in ~60 minutes. A VISA transaction is an IOU between the customer, VISA and the merchant. The merchant won't have settled funds for up to 90 days. VISA settles with the customer anywhere between a day or week, but these transactions are reversible for up to 90 days. VISA settles between bank accounts at best daily. If we are comparing like for like, use of the Bitcoin Lightning network is far closer to the service offers of VISA, and the lightning network scales the Bitcoin network far beyond 7 tps. >I won’t really comment if I trust Chase or Coinbase Bitcoin gives you the option to trust nobody. You are able to interact with the Bitcoin ledger without trusting any intermediary, even if the majority of people will choose not to. This is not an option with the existing financial system.

grey-area 4y ago

Let’s compare the most popular cryptocurrency: 1. Speed - 1s vs 10 mins for Bitcoin 2. Security - Money guaranteed by banks and governments vs do your own security or trust a dodgy exchange 3. Private transactions vs public ledger 4. Trust - counter-parties from merchants to banks are known and have a stake in the system 5. Fees - free instant transfers vs $1-2 per tx 6. Taxes… You’re right there is no comparison but it’s not the current payments system which is left eating dust, it’s bitcoin. The speed you decry as fictitious is there because of trusted counterparties and is very real. And there’s always a promise of new technology to fix bitcoin but the world has moved on and the only ones left are the moonbois and hodlers, and none of them even care about the currency except as a fairytale to sell it on.

wyager 4y ago
> Speed - 1s vs 10 mins for Bitcoin This is a clear indicator that you aren't at all familiar with the payments industry, and probably not familiar with Bitcoin either. There is no extant fiat payment system that settles in 1 second. You are the "Casual user" I was talking about who doesn't know how e.g. credit cards work behind the scenes. If you want any semblance of payment finality in a fiat system, it's going to take days to months. Bitcoin is ~10 minutes on chain, <1s on Lightning. > Security - Money guaranteed by banks and governments vs do your own security or trust a dodgy exchange "Guaranteed" is pulling a lot of weight here. What, exactly, do you think "guaranteed" means? > Private transactions vs public ledger "Private" transaction visible to any government agency, the bank's data/ad partners, in any of the abundantly available financial data leaks, vs a public ledger with strong pseudonymity or a totally opaque mesh network on Lightning. > Trust - counter-parties from merchants to banks are known and have a stake in the system I trust asymmetric key crypto more than I trust HSBC. > Fees - free instant transfers vs $1-2 per tx Fiat transfers are neither 'free' nor 'instant', in any meaningful capacity. Do some research on e.g. credit card settlement cycles. "Months" is more accurate. Credit card (along with most other widely used fiat payment gateways) charge usually something like 25 cents + 2.5%. Bitcoin is (on-chain) a few cents + 0%. Lightning is something like 0.01 cents + 0%. It only looks cheaper because the details of what's actually going on have been (intentionally, for marketing purposes) hidden from casual users. > The speed you decry as fictitious is there because of trusted counterparties and is very real. Again, look up how payment settlement cycles work. You are the type of person I was describing who believes in the fiction. I don't blame you; unless you are a "power user" of the fiat system or have done a lot of research, it's not clear why you would notice.

jakelazaroff 4y ago

> The fiction holds up only if you are a "casual" user of the system, transacting in small amounts of money in non-complicated transactions. The costs even of this fictitious speed are high, but they are hidden from casual users. To be clear, what sort of transactions are you referring to here? If you mean things like buying a bagel, or clothes, or groceries — the vast majority of transactions, for which the system should be optimized — then the existing centralized system is extremely successful.

wyager 4y ago
Yes, no argument from me that the fiat system is adequate for buying a bagel. If all you're ever doing is engaging in small-scale consumption, there's not a ton of reason you personally would care about or even notice a transition away from fiat payment systems. Realistically, the UX of payments and money management will not change for 90% of people (who aren't doing anything interesting with money and don't have a lot of it). This is fine; we're talking about swapping out the back-end for people who actually have to deal with it.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  The issue, with regard to people who have a lot of money or want to do “interesting” things with it, is that many of us do not trust those people. So when you say “hey, everything will be the same for you, but it’ll make things easier for those people”, I instantly become suspicious of the change you’re trying to effect. Because, when those people try to get cute with the economy, the upside for “casual users” (aka most people) is low to nonexistent — and the potential downside is very high.
  - jboy55 4y ago
    We're giving the keys to our financial system to crypto-bros who we're supposed to 'trust' because they claim to 'understand' how crypto works. Yet their investment advice is to buy and hold, while they pump and dump their ICOs in order to afford their lambos.