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The article mentions how this would allow all kinds of new services: >Our European companies, large and small, will also benefit from this digital identity. Th

by proc0 4y ago

The article mentions how this would allow all kinds of new services: >Our European companies, large and small, will also benefit from this digital identity. They will be able to offer a wide range of new services since the proposal offers a solution for secure and trusted identification services. It mentions things like going to nightclubs, and I assume it will include many more things that would otherwise not require a mobile app. Because this all now goes through government controlled servers, it follows they will have knowledge of all these new services, and all this new activity on every single citizen. In practice, this means government will know much more because this is now a widespread, mandatory form of ID. The question for me is, why does government need all of this information, as oppose to how can government intervene and make ID verification more convenient. The scale of this is unprecedented as well, from the amount of people doing it to the granularity of where and how it's going to be used.

hulitu 4y ago
> Because this all now goes through government controlled servers, it follows they will have knowledge of all these new services, and all this new activity on every single citizen. If only the government will have access to this data it will definitely be an improvement compared to the current situation where everybody ( Google, FB, MS, Apple, dark web, Cloudfare, government) has acces to your data, only you don't.
ko27 4y ago
Your own example proves how digital ID can be more private and secure. You go to a nightclub, you look a bit younger, person on the entrance asks proof of your age: Option 1 - You give him your ID card and you expose a wealth of data, including your full name, address and SSN/OIB to that person Option 2 - He scans your phone app, gets a big green mark which proves your exact age, or even just that you are 18+ and nothing more
- kettleballroll 4y ago
  The question here is whether option 2 is implemented on the edge device (which in turn makes it more likely that someone can steal your identity) or goes over a government owned server (which means the government could soy on you)
- lobocinza 4y ago
  Option 2 has all the problems from Option 1 multiplied. Bouncer can ask for more information and you can't even lie about it. Asking for phone number and address is somewhat reasonable in our current dystopic present on the basis of KYC and "what if there's an emergency". And you can be sure that the data will be stored in local DB with poor oversight and security and it will be used for marketing and eventually leaked.
- proc0 4y ago
  I think "private and secure" mean two different things here. It may be private and secure from malicious actors trying to steal your ID, but it's probably not private or secure when government decides it needs to coerce you into doing something you don't want to do. Option 2 is more convenient, but at what cost? I would think the probabilities of the cost being high is proportional to the probability that government will have corruption and abuse the system, which seems high in history and even today in many countries.
- bboygravity 4y ago
  Option 1: one guy gets to see all of your ID data, but most likely won't keep a record of it and will forget all he saw within 10 seconds. Option 2: the same guy has no idea who you are. Instead: your ID gets scanned, the scan hits a government server for verification. A record is now kept forever of where you went, when and with whom and this information is added to create a profile of you (and your friends/partners). They can know if you were cheating on your partner, whether you where dating, if you went out "with the boys" that night, what political flavor the people you party with prefer, and so on and so forth. 100's of people and algorithms can access these records in the future in secret, including: the NSA (even if you're European, all secret service data is shared with the NSA), local secret services, the police if they want access, the tax-man, any future dictator(s) that rises up and his subordinates, same for others in other countries that are friendly to him, anybody in politics interested in you for whatever reason that may develop in the future when data access rules get weaker (or remain unpoliced), and so on and so forth. Furthermore, if for whatever reason your political preference becomes unwanted in the future, you can fully automatically be banned from public life at the press of a button with 100% efficiency (this already happens in countries such as China as we speak, Canada CAN'T WAIT to have such a system as well). I pick option 1. It blows my mind that people don't see where this is going after Snowden.
  - burntwater 4y ago
    All of the data in option 2 is already free available even without the ID, because our smartphones are broadcasting our every move.
  - leeroyjenkins11 4y ago
    It reminds me of a section from the gulag archipelago where the KGB would accuse you by taking a picture of you with someone who was thought to be a spy because they were seen with someone accused of being a spy by someone who was accused of being a spy. They came in with circumstantial evidence to take people away. Follow anyone for long enough and they will look guilty of something. And with the 1000s of laws, does anyone think they won't break one?
    - 4y ago

by proc0 4y ago

hulitu 4y ago

> Because this all now goes through government controlled servers, it follows they will have knowledge of all these new services, and all this new activity on every single citizen. If only the government will have access to this data it will definitely be an improvement compared to the current situation where everybody ( Google, FB, MS, Apple, dark web, Cloudfare, government) has acces to your data, only you don't.

ko27 4y ago

Your own example proves how digital ID can be more private and secure. You go to a nightclub, you look a bit younger, person on the entrance asks proof of your age: Option 1 - You give him your ID card and you expose a wealth of data, including your full name, address and SSN/OIB to that person Option 2 - He scans your phone app, gets a big green mark which proves your exact age, or even just that you are 18+ and nothing more

kettleballroll 4y ago
The question here is whether option 2 is implemented on the edge device (which in turn makes it more likely that someone can steal your identity) or goes over a government owned server (which means the government could soy on you)
lobocinza 4y ago
Option 2 has all the problems from Option 1 multiplied. Bouncer can ask for more information and you can't even lie about it. Asking for phone number and address is somewhat reasonable in our current dystopic present on the basis of KYC and "what if there's an emergency". And you can be sure that the data will be stored in local DB with poor oversight and security and it will be used for marketing and eventually leaked.
proc0 4y ago
I think "private and secure" mean two different things here. It may be private and secure from malicious actors trying to steal your ID, but it's probably not private or secure when government decides it needs to coerce you into doing something you don't want to do. Option 2 is more convenient, but at what cost? I would think the probabilities of the cost being high is proportional to the probability that government will have corruption and abuse the system, which seems high in history and even today in many countries.
bboygravity 4y ago
Option 1: one guy gets to see all of your ID data, but most likely won't keep a record of it and will forget all he saw within 10 seconds. Option 2: the same guy has no idea who you are. Instead: your ID gets scanned, the scan hits a government server for verification. A record is now kept forever of where you went, when and with whom and this information is added to create a profile of you (and your friends/partners). They can know if you were cheating on your partner, whether you where dating, if you went out "with the boys" that night, what political flavor the people you party with prefer, and so on and so forth. 100's of people and algorithms can access these records in the future in secret, including: the NSA (even if you're European, all secret service data is shared with the NSA), local secret services, the police if they want access, the tax-man, any future dictator(s) that rises up and his subordinates, same for others in other countries that are friendly to him, anybody in politics interested in you for whatever reason that may develop in the future when data access rules get weaker (or remain unpoliced), and so on and so forth. Furthermore, if for whatever reason your political preference becomes unwanted in the future, you can fully automatically be banned from public life at the press of a button with 100% efficiency (this already happens in countries such as China as we speak, Canada CAN'T WAIT to have such a system as well). I pick option 1. It blows my mind that people don't see where this is going after Snowden.
- burntwater 4y ago
  All of the data in option 2 is already free available even without the ID, because our smartphones are broadcasting our every move.
- leeroyjenkins11 4y ago
  It reminds me of a section from the gulag archipelago where the KGB would accuse you by taking a picture of you with someone who was thought to be a spy because they were seen with someone accused of being a spy by someone who was accused of being a spy. They came in with circumstantial evidence to take people away. Follow anyone for long enough and they will look guilty of something. And with the 1000s of laws, does anyone think they won't break one?
  - 4y ago