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There's something inherently unsettling about government having so much control over people. I know EU is different but history proves EU is more vulnerable to

by proc0 4y ago

There's something inherently unsettling about government having so much control over people. I know EU is different but history proves EU is more vulnerable to having dictators. It's interesting how people don't see the danger here, and I can almost see history repeating itself, except on a different scale. Where is this all going? I hope I'm wrong and it means some kind of utopia where people only enjoy the benefits of an all-knowing, all-seeing entity that has full control over your life, with none of the downsides. To me that seems highly unlikely, at least not without some heavy price paid along the way.

Bayart 4y ago
More vulnerable compared to what ? The EU itself is barely a few generations old. And if your point of reference is the US, it's just 250 years old. There's very little data to go off of.
Ajef 4y ago
What power does the EU/its governments gain here? Aren't they already the only identity provider (passports, ID cards, drivers license)?
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  And perhaps more importantly, they all have their own versions of digital IDs as well, all with their own quirks and potential vulnerabilities.
- cft 4y ago
  Historically money was not controlled by any government (gold). Gold lasted for tens of thousands of years: private transactions with money whose value was beyond a single government control. Now we are talking about a single non-elected EU government controlling every transaction, not just the issuance of fiat money. I personally think that with time this will implode, because the society always evolves towards more freedom, towards less centralization. There are multiple steps now in the reverse direction. However the discrepancy between the views of the government, the ruling classes and the reality is becoming so big that without a grand catastrophe (a global war, a revolution, etc) the inevitable correction seems less and less possible.
  - M2Ys4U 4y ago
    >Now we are talking about a single non-elected EU government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parl...
    - petre 4y ago
      The OP is talking about the EC which has its members appointed through a less transparent process.
  - doggwalker 4y ago
    I just don't see how you can say society always evolves towards more freedom and less centralization. I would say the total opposite. The natural equilibrium is no freedom and complete centralization but we have just been in a far from equilibrium state recently. I imagine over the next 100 years "freedom" will be completely redefined. It was only 40 years ago in the US that you could go to a bar, get incredibly drunk and then drive home without a seat belt. This was normal behavior that is now 100% illegal. It is hard for me to imagine a future that doesn't look like modern day China but with monitoring of blood and brain states as well. Society has already spoken that we will trade freedom for safety. With pooling resources for health insurance we are going to have to know collectively about early warning signs in your blood once possible in order to keep us all safe. We are going to have to monitor your brain state once possible for early warning signs of people becoming unhinged to keep us all safe. I mean you don't have the freedom to travel west and claim 160 acres of land anymore. It wasn't that long ago people had that freedom but it is laughable by today's standards. I think this is how people in the future will feel about total surveillance because that is kind of how it is now anyway.
    - cft 4y ago
      I upvoted you, but you are talking about smaller time scales. In Rome, between 15% and 35% were hereditary slaves. Then for a thousand years, the majority of the European population were serfs (freer than slaves). In the last 150 years, most people in Europe and in the US are able to choose their own jobs. That's the transition I am talking about. I think the fiat money and current war on free enterprise will ultimately end with a regime change.
- proc0 4y ago
  The article mentions how this would allow all kinds of new services: >Our European companies, large and small, will also benefit from this digital identity. They will be able to offer a wide range of new services since the proposal offers a solution for secure and trusted identification services. It mentions things like going to nightclubs, and I assume it will include many more things that would otherwise not require a mobile app. Because this all now goes through government controlled servers, it follows they will have knowledge of all these new services, and all this new activity on every single citizen. In practice, this means government will know much more because this is now a widespread, mandatory form of ID. The question for me is, why does government need all of this information, as oppose to how can government intervene and make ID verification more convenient. The scale of this is unprecedented as well, from the amount of people doing it to the granularity of where and how it's going to be used.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    > Because this all now goes through government controlled servers, it follows they will have knowledge of all these new services, and all this new activity on every single citizen. If only the government will have access to this data it will definitely be an improvement compared to the current situation where everybody ( Google, FB, MS, Apple, dark web, Cloudfare, government) has acces to your data, only you don't.
  - ko27 4y ago
    Your own example proves how digital ID can be more private and secure. You go to a nightclub, you look a bit younger, person on the entrance asks proof of your age: Option 1 - You give him your ID card and you expose a wealth of data, including your full name, address and SSN/OIB to that person Option 2 - He scans your phone app, gets a big green mark which proves your exact age, or even just that you are 18+ and nothing more
    - kettleballroll 4y ago
      The question here is whether option 2 is implemented on the edge device (which in turn makes it more likely that someone can steal your identity) or goes over a government owned server (which means the government could soy on you)
- _Algernon_ 4y ago
  The ID is now also a gps tracker that can send its location everywhere you go.
  - marto1 4y ago
    Ah sweet, man-made horrors beyond my comprehension as the meme goes.
kybernetyk 4y ago
While such things can look benign under a democratic and liberal governmentthis all changes when some "bad guy" comes to power. My personal litmus test for things like these is: What if someone like Stalin/Hitler would have had this. And suddenly rounding up a group of people becomes nothing more than a SQL query.
stncls 4y ago
> There's something inherently unsettling about government having so much control over people. The article is way worse than that. It's about outsourcing government surveillance to military hardware maker Thales, who is proudly explaining how they'll do it using their exclusive proprietary technology.
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  Isn’t outsourcing incredibly common for this type of thing? Not saying I am particularly fond of Thales (I’m not), but I have extremely low expectations of an EU in-house software development team. All things considered, I’d expect a military contractor to be proficient at security as well. If your concern is the lack of transparency, then I agree. This needs to be open technology.
  - stncls 4y ago
    > If your concern is the lack of transparency, then I agree. This needs to be open technology. Yes, exactly. My understanding is that openness is not really in Thales' culture. > I have extremely low expectations of an EU in-house I agree that modern ergonomics and convenience are not usually the strengths of in-house gov IT in the EU. But sometimes the basics got done right. I'm thinking of some of the smaller countries' digital/electronic IDs. Also, setting aside all ethical questions, the technical side of EU Covid passes was ok, as far as I understood.
barrysteve 4y ago
If there's a great depression again in the 2030s, like there was last time, then the command economy that's established in the 2040s will use this and any tech like this to reduce unemployment by "force". The world of Ayn Rand's Fountainhead is looking more and more likely. Where every single thing is revealed and the heroic act is simply to do something different to the slaving public. This system doesn't treat people like an end in themselves, it treats them like they are a means for everyone else to use them.
jdasdf 4y ago
> I know EU is different How do you know that?
- proc0 4y ago
  From reading other comments and also I'm just stating the obvious. There are different systems of government, which work differently and is something people must be accustomed to.
viktorcode 4y ago
All the papers that can be replaced with this digital ID were issued by the state.
- _Algernon_ 4y ago
  And those papers dont include a gps and internet connection that can silently ping your location to the government every second.
  - viktorcode 4y ago
    In many countries your mobile phone number is too linked with the ID. So technically government already can watch your movements if you are carrying a mobile phone.

by proc0 4y ago

Bayart 4y ago

More vulnerable compared to what ? The EU itself is barely a few generations old. And if your point of reference is the US, it's just 250 years old. There's very little data to go off of.

Ajef 4y ago

What power does the EU/its governments gain here? Aren't they already the only identity provider (passports, ID cards, drivers license)?

stingraycharles 4y ago
And perhaps more importantly, they all have their own versions of digital IDs as well, all with their own quirks and potential vulnerabilities.
cft 4y ago
Historically money was not controlled by any government (gold). Gold lasted for tens of thousands of years: private transactions with money whose value was beyond a single government control. Now we are talking about a single non-elected EU government controlling every transaction, not just the issuance of fiat money. I personally think that with time this will implode, because the society always evolves towards more freedom, towards less centralization. There are multiple steps now in the reverse direction. However the discrepancy between the views of the government, the ruling classes and the reality is becoming so big that without a grand catastrophe (a global war, a revolution, etc) the inevitable correction seems less and less possible.
- M2Ys4U 4y ago
  >Now we are talking about a single non-elected EU government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parl...
  - petre 4y ago
    The OP is talking about the EC which has its members appointed through a less transparent process.
- doggwalker 4y ago
  I just don't see how you can say society always evolves towards more freedom and less centralization. I would say the total opposite. The natural equilibrium is no freedom and complete centralization but we have just been in a far from equilibrium state recently. I imagine over the next 100 years "freedom" will be completely redefined. It was only 40 years ago in the US that you could go to a bar, get incredibly drunk and then drive home without a seat belt. This was normal behavior that is now 100% illegal. It is hard for me to imagine a future that doesn't look like modern day China but with monitoring of blood and brain states as well. Society has already spoken that we will trade freedom for safety. With pooling resources for health insurance we are going to have to know collectively about early warning signs in your blood once possible in order to keep us all safe. We are going to have to monitor your brain state once possible for early warning signs of people becoming unhinged to keep us all safe. I mean you don't have the freedom to travel west and claim 160 acres of land anymore. It wasn't that long ago people had that freedom but it is laughable by today's standards. I think this is how people in the future will feel about total surveillance because that is kind of how it is now anyway.
  - cft 4y ago
    I upvoted you, but you are talking about smaller time scales. In Rome, between 15% and 35% were hereditary slaves. Then for a thousand years, the majority of the European population were serfs (freer than slaves). In the last 150 years, most people in Europe and in the US are able to choose their own jobs. That's the transition I am talking about. I think the fiat money and current war on free enterprise will ultimately end with a regime change.
proc0 4y ago
The article mentions how this would allow all kinds of new services: >Our European companies, large and small, will also benefit from this digital identity. They will be able to offer a wide range of new services since the proposal offers a solution for secure and trusted identification services. It mentions things like going to nightclubs, and I assume it will include many more things that would otherwise not require a mobile app. Because this all now goes through government controlled servers, it follows they will have knowledge of all these new services, and all this new activity on every single citizen. In practice, this means government will know much more because this is now a widespread, mandatory form of ID. The question for me is, why does government need all of this information, as oppose to how can government intervene and make ID verification more convenient. The scale of this is unprecedented as well, from the amount of people doing it to the granularity of where and how it's going to be used.
- hulitu 4y ago
  > Because this all now goes through government controlled servers, it follows they will have knowledge of all these new services, and all this new activity on every single citizen. If only the government will have access to this data it will definitely be an improvement compared to the current situation where everybody ( Google, FB, MS, Apple, dark web, Cloudfare, government) has acces to your data, only you don't.
- ko27 4y ago
  Your own example proves how digital ID can be more private and secure. You go to a nightclub, you look a bit younger, person on the entrance asks proof of your age: Option 1 - You give him your ID card and you expose a wealth of data, including your full name, address and SSN/OIB to that person Option 2 - He scans your phone app, gets a big green mark which proves your exact age, or even just that you are 18+ and nothing more
  - kettleballroll 4y ago
    The question here is whether option 2 is implemented on the edge device (which in turn makes it more likely that someone can steal your identity) or goes over a government owned server (which means the government could soy on you)
_Algernon_ 4y ago
The ID is now also a gps tracker that can send its location everywhere you go.
- marto1 4y ago
  Ah sweet, man-made horrors beyond my comprehension as the meme goes.

kybernetyk 4y ago

While such things can look benign under a democratic and liberal governmentthis all changes when some "bad guy" comes to power. My personal litmus test for things like these is: What if someone like Stalin/Hitler would have had this. And suddenly rounding up a group of people becomes nothing more than a SQL query.

stncls 4y ago

> There's something inherently unsettling about government having so much control over people. The article is way worse than that. It's about outsourcing government surveillance to military hardware maker Thales, who is proudly explaining how they'll do it using their exclusive proprietary technology.

stingraycharles 4y ago
Isn’t outsourcing incredibly common for this type of thing? Not saying I am particularly fond of Thales (I’m not), but I have extremely low expectations of an EU in-house software development team. All things considered, I’d expect a military contractor to be proficient at security as well. If your concern is the lack of transparency, then I agree. This needs to be open technology.
- stncls 4y ago
  > If your concern is the lack of transparency, then I agree. This needs to be open technology. Yes, exactly. My understanding is that openness is not really in Thales' culture. > I have extremely low expectations of an EU in-house I agree that modern ergonomics and convenience are not usually the strengths of in-house gov IT in the EU. But sometimes the basics got done right. I'm thinking of some of the smaller countries' digital/electronic IDs. Also, setting aside all ethical questions, the technical side of EU Covid passes was ok, as far as I understood.

barrysteve 4y ago

If there's a great depression again in the 2030s, like there was last time, then the command economy that's established in the 2040s will use this and any tech like this to reduce unemployment by "force". The world of Ayn Rand's Fountainhead is looking more and more likely. Where every single thing is revealed and the heroic act is simply to do something different to the slaving public. This system doesn't treat people like an end in themselves, it treats them like they are a means for everyone else to use them.

jdasdf 4y ago

> I know EU is different How do you know that?

proc0 4y ago
From reading other comments and also I'm just stating the obvious. There are different systems of government, which work differently and is something people must be accustomed to.

viktorcode 4y ago

All the papers that can be replaced with this digital ID were issued by the state.

_Algernon_ 4y ago
And those papers dont include a gps and internet connection that can silently ping your location to the government every second.
- viktorcode 4y ago
  In many countries your mobile phone number is too linked with the ID. So technically government already can watch your movements if you are carrying a mobile phone.