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Then tell the EPA to start lobbying the NRC to allow new nuclear plants and start allowing innovation in the space. The EPA is not a legislative body. If you

Then tell the EPA to start lobbying the NRC to allow new nuclear plants and start allowing innovation in the space. The EPA is not a legislative body. If you want to make it illegal to run a coal plant because you feel like it’s your duty to force some pain on the citizenry for what you perceive as a higher calling: pass a law.

politician 4y ago
100%. We need to stop treating the judiciary as if it were royalty, and instead operate the government using the established rules for change. That means forcing Congress to accept its role and do its job instead of being a place where the members spend most of their time fundraising and trying to keep their seats.
mrpopo 4y ago
> Then tell the EPA to start lobbying the NRC to start building new nuclear plants No, stopping the coal plants is the end goal. Whether it's by saving energy or building alternative sources like solar/hydro/nuclear is irrelevant to the EPA's goal (protecting the environment/mitigating climate change). Innovation will not save us, the tools have been here for decades. I agree this should be passed as a law.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
Can’t pass a law, too many climate change deniers in political positions. We’ll have to find other mechanisms to force coal plants offline. Lots of tools available besides the EPA.
- codefreeordie 4y ago
  "can't pass a law because I can't get enough voters to want it" Sounds like maybe you don't believe in democracy
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Sometimes I don’t. The climate doesn’t care about your vote or belief system. So, you have to work around democracy. Play to win, the stakes are too high not to.
    - codefreeordie 4y ago
      You probably won't like it when your opponents start playing to win democracy be damned
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        They already are. What do you think this is? They spent decades to enable this, they’ve said so publicly. Mitch McConnell’s book is even called “The Long Game.” They are knowingly, actively subverting democracy for their own ends. So, here we are. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mitch-mcconnell-dark-lord-shaped-supreme-court-led-end-abortion-landmark-roe https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mitch-mcconnell-dark-lord-s... (the Fox News article slug even refers to him as the dark lord)
        codefreeordie 4y ago
        You know, it's funny. (well, "funny") Each party's advocates say "the other side has been playing to win rules and democracy be damned for decades, and if we don't start ignoring the rules and playing dirty, they'll kill us all". Each side claims to love democracy but to be willing to destroy it only because doing so is necessary to protect them from the Enemy. I think that maybe most people don't actually care about democracy, they just want to win the war.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        I want a habitable planet for my kids. If you don’t believe in climate change, there is simply no value in engaging. The science is proven by scientists who do science things. It’s like someone not believing in gravity. “But I have my own opinion!” They believe their opinions carry the same weight as facts. You’re just lighting precious time and effort on fire needlessly, banging your head against the brick wall expecting the brick wall to critically think with factual information. Take care, good chat.
kennywinker 4y ago
> If you want to make it illegal to run a coal plant because you feel like it’s your duty to force some pain on the citizenry for what you perceive as a higher calling: pass a law. Nobody wants what you described. Global warming is literally killing people by the thousands every year now. Wars are coming, mass migrations and climate refugees. This is a crisis, it’s just not a localized one. And it doesn’t have to be painful. Building + running windmills, solar, even nuclear, those are all good jobs. You might just as well frame it “if 19 states want to make the world suffer so a few corporations can profit and people don’t have to re-train”.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >>If you want to make it illegal to run a coal plant because you feel like it’s your duty to force some pain on the citizenry for what you perceive as a higher calling >Nobody wants what you described Do you think everyone hear has the memory of a goldfish or are you just lying to us without a care in the world? We can literally go into any HN thread on the subject of coal and see tons of comments to the tune of "this will cause people a bunch of pain but outlawing X, Y and Z or taxing them to create the same effect is necessary in order to get off of fossil fuels therefore it is necessary for the greater good". I don't disagree with the premise that it's gonna hurt but just turning around and saying "nobody's saying that" when it suits you is beyond bad faith behavior. People like you are just as bad for progress as the coal lobby is because you undermine the people telling it like it is.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    Op’s message was that people think it’s their duty to force pain on people for some higher calling. As I said, nobody wants that. Emphasis on “wants”, emphasis on “that”. The same people calling for climate action are the ones calling for a just transitions - UBI, green new deals, etc. so if they were to get their way it wouldn’t actually be painful. That’s the “wants” part. But even if we don’t get those things, it actually has to happen - it’s not some random desire. It’s an existential threat to human life. So, it has to be done at whatever cost. Not because they “believe in some higher calling” - because the facts are that this is going to hurt everyone if we don’t deal with it at great scale asap. And that’s the “that” part.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
If you want airspace to be regulated, pass a law (cancel the FAA). If you want frequencies to be regulated, pass a law (cancel the FCC). If you want individual food and drugs to be regulated, pass a law (cancel the FDA). If you want cars to be regulated, ...
Sporktacular 4y ago
"duty to force some pain on the citizenry" You do know that coal power kills more people than any other power source right? That makes health care a hidden cost, paid by the citizenry, to subsidise an irresponsible energy industry. Think much?
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  Why is this so confusing? Then pass a law. I hope every coal plant on earth goes away forever. I hate coal plants. Get rid of them and PASS A LAW restricting their use.
  - Sporktacular 4y ago
    Have you seen how hard it is to pass a contentious law these days? Most people can agree about its merits but it's naive to act as if special interests haven't manufactured the contention and captured the regulatory and legislative processes. We don't have the luxury of proceduralism any more.
    - thepasswordis 4y ago
      Think about what you’re saying. Democracy is hard so let’s throw it all away? Do you realize where that leads?
      - Sporktacular 4y ago
        Don't be hyperbolic. We had democracy before Coney-Barrett, Kavanaugh and Gorsuch were appointed. Hamstringing the EPA over a contrived technicality in the wording of its charter is a travesty of justice. It's public utility is obvious. It's in the name.
    - phaistra 4y ago
      > Have you seen how hard it is to pass a contentious law these days? So what? Not the SC's problem. > Most people can agree about its merits but it's naive to act as if special interests haven't manufactured the contention and captured the regulatory and legislative processes. So if special interests have captured the regulatory body, how is letting them keep (or gain) their unelected power any better? > We don't have the luxury of proceduralism any more. I can use the same argument about any topic we disagree about. Do you not see the problem with this line of thinking?
thsijustin 4y ago

politician 4y ago

100%. We need to stop treating the judiciary as if it were royalty, and instead operate the government using the established rules for change. That means forcing Congress to accept its role and do its job instead of being a place where the members spend most of their time fundraising and trying to keep their seats.

mrpopo 4y ago

> Then tell the EPA to start lobbying the NRC to start building new nuclear plants No, stopping the coal plants is the end goal. Whether it's by saving energy or building alternative sources like solar/hydro/nuclear is irrelevant to the EPA's goal (protecting the environment/mitigating climate change). Innovation will not save us, the tools have been here for decades. I agree this should be passed as a law.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

Can’t pass a law, too many climate change deniers in political positions. We’ll have to find other mechanisms to force coal plants offline. Lots of tools available besides the EPA.

codefreeordie 4y ago
"can't pass a law because I can't get enough voters to want it" Sounds like maybe you don't believe in democracy
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Sometimes I don’t. The climate doesn’t care about your vote or belief system. So, you have to work around democracy. Play to win, the stakes are too high not to.
  - codefreeordie 4y ago
    You probably won't like it when your opponents start playing to win democracy be damned
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      They already are. What do you think this is? They spent decades to enable this, they’ve said so publicly. Mitch McConnell’s book is even called “The Long Game.” They are knowingly, actively subverting democracy for their own ends. So, here we are. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mitch-mcconnell-dark-lord-shaped-supreme-court-led-end-abortion-landmark-roe https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mitch-mcconnell-dark-lord-s... (the Fox News article slug even refers to him as the dark lord)
      - codefreeordie 4y ago
        You know, it's funny. (well, "funny") Each party's advocates say "the other side has been playing to win rules and democracy be damned for decades, and if we don't start ignoring the rules and playing dirty, they'll kill us all". Each side claims to love democracy but to be willing to destroy it only because doing so is necessary to protect them from the Enemy. I think that maybe most people don't actually care about democracy, they just want to win the war.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        I want a habitable planet for my kids. If you don’t believe in climate change, there is simply no value in engaging. The science is proven by scientists who do science things. It’s like someone not believing in gravity. “But I have my own opinion!” They believe their opinions carry the same weight as facts. You’re just lighting precious time and effort on fire needlessly, banging your head against the brick wall expecting the brick wall to critically think with factual information. Take care, good chat.

kennywinker 4y ago

> If you want to make it illegal to run a coal plant because you feel like it’s your duty to force some pain on the citizenry for what you perceive as a higher calling: pass a law. Nobody wants what you described. Global warming is literally killing people by the thousands every year now. Wars are coming, mass migrations and climate refugees. This is a crisis, it’s just not a localized one. And it doesn’t have to be painful. Building + running windmills, solar, even nuclear, those are all good jobs. You might just as well frame it “if 19 states want to make the world suffer so a few corporations can profit and people don’t have to re-train”.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
>>If you want to make it illegal to run a coal plant because you feel like it’s your duty to force some pain on the citizenry for what you perceive as a higher calling >Nobody wants what you described Do you think everyone hear has the memory of a goldfish or are you just lying to us without a care in the world? We can literally go into any HN thread on the subject of coal and see tons of comments to the tune of "this will cause people a bunch of pain but outlawing X, Y and Z or taxing them to create the same effect is necessary in order to get off of fossil fuels therefore it is necessary for the greater good". I don't disagree with the premise that it's gonna hurt but just turning around and saying "nobody's saying that" when it suits you is beyond bad faith behavior. People like you are just as bad for progress as the coal lobby is because you undermine the people telling it like it is.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  Op’s message was that people think it’s their duty to force pain on people for some higher calling. As I said, nobody wants that. Emphasis on “wants”, emphasis on “that”. The same people calling for climate action are the ones calling for a just transitions - UBI, green new deals, etc. so if they were to get their way it wouldn’t actually be painful. That’s the “wants” part. But even if we don’t get those things, it actually has to happen - it’s not some random desire. It’s an existential threat to human life. So, it has to be done at whatever cost. Not because they “believe in some higher calling” - because the facts are that this is going to hurt everyone if we don’t deal with it at great scale asap. And that’s the “that” part.

KingOfCoders 4y ago

If you want airspace to be regulated, pass a law (cancel the FAA). If you want frequencies to be regulated, pass a law (cancel the FCC). If you want individual food and drugs to be regulated, pass a law (cancel the FDA). If you want cars to be regulated, ...

Sporktacular 4y ago

"duty to force some pain on the citizenry" You do know that coal power kills more people than any other power source right? That makes health care a hidden cost, paid by the citizenry, to subsidise an irresponsible energy industry. Think much?

thepasswordis 4y ago
Why is this so confusing? Then pass a law. I hope every coal plant on earth goes away forever. I hate coal plants. Get rid of them and PASS A LAW restricting their use.
- Sporktacular 4y ago
  Have you seen how hard it is to pass a contentious law these days? Most people can agree about its merits but it's naive to act as if special interests haven't manufactured the contention and captured the regulatory and legislative processes. We don't have the luxury of proceduralism any more.
  - thepasswordis 4y ago
    Think about what you’re saying. Democracy is hard so let’s throw it all away? Do you realize where that leads?
    - Sporktacular 4y ago
      Don't be hyperbolic. We had democracy before Coney-Barrett, Kavanaugh and Gorsuch were appointed. Hamstringing the EPA over a contrived technicality in the wording of its charter is a travesty of justice. It's public utility is obvious. It's in the name.
  - phaistra 4y ago
    > Have you seen how hard it is to pass a contentious law these days? So what? Not the SC's problem. > Most people can agree about its merits but it's naive to act as if special interests haven't manufactured the contention and captured the regulatory and legislative processes. So if special interests have captured the regulatory body, how is letting them keep (or gain) their unelected power any better? > We don't have the luxury of proceduralism any more. I can use the same argument about any topic we disagree about. Do you not see the problem with this line of thinking?

thsijustin 4y ago