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"All Coinbase Tracer features use data that is fully sourced from online, publicly available data, and do not include any personally identifiable information fo

"All Coinbase Tracer features use data that is fully sourced from online, publicly available data, and do not include any personally identifiable information for anyone, or any proprietary Coinbase user data." Misleading headline. This is a public blockchain analytics service that has nothing to do with Coinbase's other services.

NelsonMinar 4y ago
That begs the question; why would Coinbase build this service?
- thedracle 4y ago
  I would guess just having a lot of blockchain experts on staff, and since the blockchain is pretty much an open, unencrypted, public ledger; analyzing it is a pretty natural and not entirely unethical thing to do. I think the issue is really just working with ICE, and the ethical concerns that brings up.
- anbotero 4y ago
  Yes, to me this would be a better addition to the article, explain the tool real goal. Now... you need metrics and analytics over what’s going on with your products. This sounds like something that helps address that somehow, staying anonymous from what it looks like (it says it has no identifiable information linked to people), but even the contract linked makes it hard to understand.
- spamizbad 4y ago
  I'm guessing this started in good faith as a way to track down money launderers and other nefarious users and naturally ICE caught wind and demanded access as well. Coinbase is proudly apolitical so it has no reason to refuse compliance with an alphabet agency.
- sneak 4y ago
  First, begs the question does not mean raises the question. You mean to use the latter. Second, because laws and enforcement thereof in the USA are arbitrary and wielded as a weapon. Coinbase is a crypto company who would get absolutely obliterated by regulation and legal hassle if they don't play ball with the federal government - on the latter's terms, of course. The US federal government expects complete and total dragnet suspicionless surveillance of all electronic payments in the USA. Anyone doing payments in the USA is expected to cooperate fully or face destruction. The idea that you're free to do anything in the US that isn't illegal is an illusion. Get big or important enough and what you are doing will be made illegal (or existing laws will be reinterpreted to apply to you) if you don't play ball with TPTB. See also: FISA section 702. The same sort of pressure is applied to Apple, which is why they maintain a backdoor in the end to end crypto of iMessage for the FBI. No amount of money or commercial success allows you to bypass these power structures.
  - jamiek88 4y ago
    >which is why they maintain a backdoor in the end to end crypto of iMessage for the FBI That’s a very large claim to make without any further citation or sourcing. This would be very big news if true.
    - sneak 4y ago
      Reuters reported it and mostly nobody cares. I have linked this link on HN dozens of times. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... iCloud Backup (non e2e) backs up the endpoint keys for iMessage. Apple knows this is bad and they were going to do e2e backups (like Google does for Android) and Apple Legal killed the project on FBI request.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  It sounds like they mostly acquired it, see: https://blog.coinbase.com/living-up-to-our-values-and-the-neutrino-acquisition-ba98174cdcf6 https://blog.coinbase.com/living-up-to-our-values-and-the-ne...
  - prvit 4y ago
    And coinbase acquired this because they need it to address compliance concerns. Might as well sell it to third parties too.
anbotero 4y ago
Doesn’t matter much: Damage done; you can even see from other comments here already. They probably didn’t check the so called contract linked, much less the article itself which is pretty, pretty light on any kind of legitimate details. Complain, I don’t know, about actually having a contract with ICE, perhaps? More meaningful that whatever the article complained about. I would complain about what the quote from the spokesperson really mean, that doesn’t really say what the product does, making us look at the contract to even try to get a proper summary.
axg11 4y ago
This is still a problem even if their product only uses public data. Coinbase has access to non-public data, which they can use to validate any analysis or algorithms. Until they explicitly say that no private information was ever used to validate the analytics, it's reasonable to assume they're doing so.
4oh9do 4y ago
> This is a public blockchain analytics service that has nothing to do with Coinbase's other services. Are you familiar with the concept of parallel construction? It's a tactic LEOs use when they don't want to reveal how they actually obtained information. For instance, if they obtain information using method A, but want to conceal method A, they state that they actually obtained the information using method B (because the information actually is, after the fact, obtainable via method B as well, once you know what to look for). In Coinbase's case the way this would work is Coinbase sources data from their internal databases (method A), and then after the fact they do let's say a Google search or some other public search for the names or whatever they found in their internal databases, and state that all data is sourced from online, publicly available data (method B).
- TameAntelope 4y ago
  You have absolutely zero evidence whatsoever to support this claim, and as such you should not make it. This is how disinformation is spread; not through some conspiratorial plot to confuse, but from fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
  - 4oh9do 4y ago
    I am not making a claim, I am laying out how the process could hypothetically occur, hence the use of "would" in my post. I'm curious, however, why did you not make a similar post to the parent comment...in that the parent comment has presented no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that Coinbase is only using publicly-available information, and therefore by your own reasoning the parent poster should not make the claim.
    - TameAntelope 4y ago
      > Coinbase Tracer allows clients, in both government and the private sector, to trace transactions through the blockchain, a distributed ledger of transactions integral to cryptocurrency use. Because both the parent comment and I have read the article, so we both have evidence to support the claim that Coinbase is only using publicly-available information, as that's how Coinbase Tracer, the license to which was reported as sold to ICE for $29,000, works.
tedivm 4y ago
>Coinbase Tracer, formerly known as Coinbase Analytics, has faced controversy before. The branch of the exchange responsible for the software’s development emerged from Coinbase’s 2019 acquisition of blockchain intelligence firm Neutrino, whose executive team previously worked with a startup that sold spyware to several governments, including Saudi Arabia, known for human rights abuses. I don't know why we should assume good faith on coinbase's part when the same group of people working on this used to sell spyware to human rights abusers.
- gowld 4y ago
  Please share a link with more info. Are you referring to Neutrino? https://decrypt.co/36608/coinbase-ceo-reflects-on-neutrino-acquisition-we-messed-up https://decrypt.co/36608/coinbase-ceo-reflects-on-neutrino-a... > Armstrong said that after realizing that Coinbase could’ve hired some “black hats,” he insisted on first speaking to Neutrino staff to find out how much of this was true. After assessing the situation, he sacked some of the ex-Hacking Team members but did not specify who. > All of the key people who had “some kind of question mark or reputational or values issue” were let go from the company, he said. While some lower-level engineers who “were not the decision-makers and weren’t as culpable” remained with the company
  - tedivm 4y ago
    I literally quoted the article that this entire page is about, and I'm also obviously referring to Neutrino seeing as how I directly quoted them. Please read the articles before telling people they need to share more. Regardless, I don't trust Brian on this. This is the same guy who shit all over his own staff for being "whistle blowers", claiming that these things have to stay in house. Coinbase failed to do their due diligence, bought a company that made spyware, and then claimed that they fired some people but never clarified who. He also explicitly said he only fired some of the "hacking team" that was responsible for the issues, not the entire team itself. At the end of the day there's absolutely no reason to take them at the word here, and plenty of reason not to.
madeofpalk 4y ago
The headline is "Coinbase Is Reportedly Selling Geolocation Data to ICE". What you say doesn't dispute this. How is it misleading? You say that Coinbase is selling geolocation data to ICE, which is exactly what the headline says.
- bertil 4y ago
  I’m assuming that the implication of the title is that Coinbase is using the location data of its active users; data that it obtained through geo-locating user IPs; IPs collected from the necessary exchange of information over TCP/IP. That’s how I read it first. The story is a little different. You could imagine a title saying that “Coinbase is collecting third-party location data and selling it to ICE” closer to the report.
apeace 4y ago
Or, Coinbase's statement that it "sources its information from public sources" is misleading. After all, the blockchain does not provide geolocation data. So what public source would that come from? That's why this article was written: because it looks like a company selling its users' geolocation data but claiming not to. Publicizing that fact may lead to an outcome where we know for sure, one way or the other. If Bob is found standing over a bleeding corpse with a smoking gun in his hand, would it be a misleading headline to say "Bob found standing over bleeding corpse with smoking gun in his hand"?
rchaud 4y ago
> a public blockchain analytics service That just happens to be designed by some very fine people: > In 2019, Motherboard reported that Neutrino, a blockchain-analysis firm the company acquired in order to create Coinbase Tracer, “was founded by three former employees of Hacking Team, a controversial Italian surveillance vendor that was caught several times selling spyware to governments with dubious human rights records, such as Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan.”

NelsonMinar 4y ago

That begs the question; why would Coinbase build this service?

thedracle 4y ago
I would guess just having a lot of blockchain experts on staff, and since the blockchain is pretty much an open, unencrypted, public ledger; analyzing it is a pretty natural and not entirely unethical thing to do. I think the issue is really just working with ICE, and the ethical concerns that brings up.
anbotero 4y ago
Yes, to me this would be a better addition to the article, explain the tool real goal. Now... you need metrics and analytics over what’s going on with your products. This sounds like something that helps address that somehow, staying anonymous from what it looks like (it says it has no identifiable information linked to people), but even the contract linked makes it hard to understand.
spamizbad 4y ago
I'm guessing this started in good faith as a way to track down money launderers and other nefarious users and naturally ICE caught wind and demanded access as well. Coinbase is proudly apolitical so it has no reason to refuse compliance with an alphabet agency.
sneak 4y ago
First, begs the question does not mean raises the question. You mean to use the latter. Second, because laws and enforcement thereof in the USA are arbitrary and wielded as a weapon. Coinbase is a crypto company who would get absolutely obliterated by regulation and legal hassle if they don't play ball with the federal government - on the latter's terms, of course. The US federal government expects complete and total dragnet suspicionless surveillance of all electronic payments in the USA. Anyone doing payments in the USA is expected to cooperate fully or face destruction. The idea that you're free to do anything in the US that isn't illegal is an illusion. Get big or important enough and what you are doing will be made illegal (or existing laws will be reinterpreted to apply to you) if you don't play ball with TPTB. See also: FISA section 702. The same sort of pressure is applied to Apple, which is why they maintain a backdoor in the end to end crypto of iMessage for the FBI. No amount of money or commercial success allows you to bypass these power structures.
- jamiek88 4y ago
  >which is why they maintain a backdoor in the end to end crypto of iMessage for the FBI That’s a very large claim to make without any further citation or sourcing. This would be very big news if true.
  - sneak 4y ago
    Reuters reported it and mostly nobody cares. I have linked this link on HN dozens of times. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... iCloud Backup (non e2e) backs up the endpoint keys for iMessage. Apple knows this is bad and they were going to do e2e backups (like Google does for Android) and Apple Legal killed the project on FBI request.
bogomipz 4y ago
It sounds like they mostly acquired it, see: https://blog.coinbase.com/living-up-to-our-values-and-the-neutrino-acquisition-ba98174cdcf6 https://blog.coinbase.com/living-up-to-our-values-and-the-ne...
- prvit 4y ago
  And coinbase acquired this because they need it to address compliance concerns. Might as well sell it to third parties too.

anbotero 4y ago

Doesn’t matter much: Damage done; you can even see from other comments here already. They probably didn’t check the so called contract linked, much less the article itself which is pretty, pretty light on any kind of legitimate details. Complain, I don’t know, about actually having a contract with ICE, perhaps? More meaningful that whatever the article complained about. I would complain about what the quote from the spokesperson really mean, that doesn’t really say what the product does, making us look at the contract to even try to get a proper summary.

axg11 4y ago

This is still a problem even if their product only uses public data. Coinbase has access to non-public data, which they can use to validate any analysis or algorithms. Until they explicitly say that no private information was ever used to validate the analytics, it's reasonable to assume they're doing so.

4oh9do 4y ago

> This is a public blockchain analytics service that has nothing to do with Coinbase's other services. Are you familiar with the concept of parallel construction? It's a tactic LEOs use when they don't want to reveal how they actually obtained information. For instance, if they obtain information using method A, but want to conceal method A, they state that they actually obtained the information using method B (because the information actually is, after the fact, obtainable via method B as well, once you know what to look for). In Coinbase's case the way this would work is Coinbase sources data from their internal databases (method A), and then after the fact they do let's say a Google search or some other public search for the names or whatever they found in their internal databases, and state that all data is sourced from online, publicly available data (method B).

TameAntelope 4y ago
You have absolutely zero evidence whatsoever to support this claim, and as such you should not make it. This is how disinformation is spread; not through some conspiratorial plot to confuse, but from fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
- 4oh9do 4y ago
  I am not making a claim, I am laying out how the process could hypothetically occur, hence the use of "would" in my post. I'm curious, however, why did you not make a similar post to the parent comment...in that the parent comment has presented no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that Coinbase is only using publicly-available information, and therefore by your own reasoning the parent poster should not make the claim.
  - TameAntelope 4y ago
    > Coinbase Tracer allows clients, in both government and the private sector, to trace transactions through the blockchain, a distributed ledger of transactions integral to cryptocurrency use. Because both the parent comment and I have read the article, so we both have evidence to support the claim that Coinbase is only using publicly-available information, as that's how Coinbase Tracer, the license to which was reported as sold to ICE for $29,000, works.

tedivm 4y ago

>Coinbase Tracer, formerly known as Coinbase Analytics, has faced controversy before. The branch of the exchange responsible for the software’s development emerged from Coinbase’s 2019 acquisition of blockchain intelligence firm Neutrino, whose executive team previously worked with a startup that sold spyware to several governments, including Saudi Arabia, known for human rights abuses. I don't know why we should assume good faith on coinbase's part when the same group of people working on this used to sell spyware to human rights abusers.

gowld 4y ago
Please share a link with more info. Are you referring to Neutrino? https://decrypt.co/36608/coinbase-ceo-reflects-on-neutrino-acquisition-we-messed-up https://decrypt.co/36608/coinbase-ceo-reflects-on-neutrino-a... > Armstrong said that after realizing that Coinbase could’ve hired some “black hats,” he insisted on first speaking to Neutrino staff to find out how much of this was true. After assessing the situation, he sacked some of the ex-Hacking Team members but did not specify who. > All of the key people who had “some kind of question mark or reputational or values issue” were let go from the company, he said. While some lower-level engineers who “were not the decision-makers and weren’t as culpable” remained with the company
- tedivm 4y ago
  I literally quoted the article that this entire page is about, and I'm also obviously referring to Neutrino seeing as how I directly quoted them. Please read the articles before telling people they need to share more. Regardless, I don't trust Brian on this. This is the same guy who shit all over his own staff for being "whistle blowers", claiming that these things have to stay in house. Coinbase failed to do their due diligence, bought a company that made spyware, and then claimed that they fired some people but never clarified who. He also explicitly said he only fired some of the "hacking team" that was responsible for the issues, not the entire team itself. At the end of the day there's absolutely no reason to take them at the word here, and plenty of reason not to.

madeofpalk 4y ago

The headline is "Coinbase Is Reportedly Selling Geolocation Data to ICE". What you say doesn't dispute this. How is it misleading? You say that Coinbase is selling geolocation data to ICE, which is exactly what the headline says.

bertil 4y ago
I’m assuming that the implication of the title is that Coinbase is using the location data of its active users; data that it obtained through geo-locating user IPs; IPs collected from the necessary exchange of information over TCP/IP. That’s how I read it first. The story is a little different. You could imagine a title saying that “Coinbase is collecting third-party location data and selling it to ICE” closer to the report.

apeace 4y ago

Or, Coinbase's statement that it "sources its information from public sources" is misleading. After all, the blockchain does not provide geolocation data. So what public source would that come from? That's why this article was written: because it looks like a company selling its users' geolocation data but claiming not to. Publicizing that fact may lead to an outcome where we know for sure, one way or the other. If Bob is found standing over a bleeding corpse with a smoking gun in his hand, would it be a misleading headline to say "Bob found standing over bleeding corpse with smoking gun in his hand"?

rchaud 4y ago

> a public blockchain analytics service That just happens to be designed by some very fine people: > In 2019, Motherboard reported that Neutrino, a blockchain-analysis firm the company acquired in order to create Coinbase Tracer, “was founded by three former employees of Hacking Team, a controversial Italian surveillance vendor that was caught several times selling spyware to governments with dubious human rights records, such as Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan.”