4 ms·

I don't get this sport. Give everyone the same car and we would see a battle between drivers.

Xenoamorphous 4y ago
Why would a battle bewteen drivers be more entertaining than a battle between drivers+makers?
igortg 4y ago
I understand the feeling. And many seasons a pretty boring because one car is just so dominating that it's a walk in the park for the driver to get the championship. But when teams get closer on performance, there's some aspects that are particular to it, like one car adapts better to a kind of circuit than the other, and this makes the championship swing for one side or the other. There's a kind of charming on not having this general equilibrium (that we see in many American sports). It much like La Liga or Premier League, where you have always 2-3 front-runners and the rest seems just acting in a supporting role.
ealexhudson 4y ago
Each car has a very different setup for each driver, and may well be designed differently for the drivers the teams have - who may have quite different driving styles and preferences. Being able to optimize both together is quite important for the series.
originalvichy 4y ago
One of the commentators likes to yse this line: the only things that are interchangeable between the top 3 teams’ cars are brake lights and tyres. Yet week in week out they are separated by less than 0,3 seconds to the finish line. The teams have gone through a great filter that makes the barrier of entry pretty limited, but there definitely is a place for the engineering battle side of F1.
- cheeze 4y ago
  > week in week out they are separated by less than 0,3 seconds to the finish line I don't think that's true though, at least not this year. Separation this year has generally either been "within 1 second, or about 20" and seems to be every other race. I think the closest gap this season has been ~.5 seconds, but many races have been somewhere between 5 and 20 seconds. And that's only considering the podium spots. Generally we see the top 1-3 teams dominate, with the feeder/mid pack teams all being 20+ seconds behind. Look at Azerbaijan, 4th place was over a _minute_ behind first place. I love f1 but it's been many years since I've felt like the sport was truly competitive. This year is way better than previous years now that Mercedes isn't in a rocket ship, but it's still just a Ferrari Red Bull battle (with Ferrari reliability and management biting them in the ass race after race)
  - originalvichy 4y ago
    I should clarify that I was talking about qualifying pace which is a good indicator of raw speed.
topicseed 4y ago
You seem to see it as an individual sport, drivers fighting each other. It is, in fact, a team sport. Man + Machine + Engineers!
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  I see it as an unequal fight. May the wealthiest win. Although that is not just a F1 problem of course. You see it in football too. I think the new rules on budget are a great way to recalibrate the sport.
  - antihero 4y ago
    Complete equality is unattainable unless I guess you birthed all the drivers from the same DNA into a test tube and controlled every aspect of their training and development. You have to draw the line somewhere and in F1 the team is within that line.
    - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
      > unless I guess you birthed all the drivers from the same DNA into a test tube and controlled every aspect of their training and development. I'd watch that movie.
  - _yb2s 4y ago
    You have to have virtually unlimited money to play, but money doesn't solve the engineering problems themselves... you still have to design and build a superior vehicle than the other teams that also have virtually unlimited funds. Having had the lucky opportunity to work as an engineer on projects with nearly unlimited budgets, it was shocking to me how little having unlimited funds really helped... I often felt a nagging feeling that I could have done nearly as well with a small budget. Perhaps money can buy creative solutions for the person with the money, but when you're the engineer they hired, that's not the experience you have. Money can also hire the "best" race car driver, but when you're that driver, you then have to figure out how to drive even faster... the money doesn't drive the car. edit: you might appreciate 24 hours of lemons - a car race with a $500 budget limit https://24hoursoflemons.com/ https://24hoursoflemons.com/
CocaKoala 4y ago
One of the things I think is really neat about F1, and which doesn't show up in any other sports that I'm aware of aside from other types of motor racing, is that F1 isn't one competition - it's two separate competitions running in parallel. The first competition is the obvious one: The drivers all want to be the fastest driver and get the most points in the driver's championship. The second competition is similarly obvious: The constructors all want to have built the fastest car, and get the most points in the constructor's championship. But crucially, these two competitions can't exist without each other! The drivers can't be fast if they have a good car, and the best cars won't be fast unless there's a driver who really understands how to wring the most performance out of it sitting behind the wheel. So there's this constant (and in my opinion, fascinating) tension where the constructors are trying to build a) fast cars, but also b) cars that their current drivers can effectively use and the drivers are trying to a) drive the car fast but also b) find the constructor who will build a car that can go fast and is suited to their driving style. In other sports there's some amount of equipment preference (e.g. different golfers have different brands of clubs, different tennis players might use different brands of rackets or different shoes), but the equipment manufacturers aren't literally competing with other manufacturers - they're just trying to supply an industry. So if you give everybody the same car, then yes - it becomes a transparent display of driver skill, but that doesn't necessarily make the race better, because now you've lost half of the competition. F1 (and motor racing) history is full of bits where somebody managed to figure out something neat about aerodynamics, stuck a new part on their car, and then _lied to everybody else about what it was_ so that nobody would be able to figure out why their car had gotten so fast; the ground effect lotus '78 comes to mind, as does the discovery of the gurney flap.
DRW_ 4y ago
Why? There are other sports for that. F1 is cool because it's multidimensional and a proper team sport in many regards. People building the car, supporting the race, strategy, supporting the teams building the cars, the drivers, etc. Some teams have over 1000 people behind them and you can see weaknesses and strengths in those teams across a number of areas.
- RantyDave 4y ago
  I've been watching quite a lot recently and it strikes me that choosing when to change the tyres and how well you subsequently pull it off is a large proportion of actually winning.
ajoseps 4y ago
that's the IndyCar
timdellinger 4y ago
do you "get" BattleBots? Teams build a robot, and then they compete in a combat arena against other teams' robots. The design and build and strategy are as important as the person controlling the robot.
Hellbanevil 4y ago
is_true 4y ago
It's a battle between engineers + a driver + a pit crew + other drivers If you want to "get it" go to the F1 subreddit, if you like data analysis you'll like it.
pmontra 4y ago
A friend living in the USA told me many years ago: in the USA companies compete to the death and sport is managed with a kind of non aggression pact. In Europe it's the opposite. Sport is where you outspend and destroy the opponents and work is where you get along with the others. And more to the point. As Italian I can't care less about the drivers. All I want to see is Ferrari winning. Who drives it is an implementation detail, human, AI, remote control, it's the same.
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  I realize most people don't give a shit. PSG fans don't care that they are winning because of wealthy oil sheikhs they just want to win. The how is irrelevant. Outspending and destroying the opponent is too boring for me. You already know Haas will never be on the podium.
  - pmontra 4y ago
    They got close. A 4th and 5th position in Austria in 2018, their best season so far. A 5th this year in the opening race.
TheCondor 4y ago
The drivers are the side show, it's a battle between constructors.
_ea1k 4y ago
TBH, I suspect a lot of us here would be more excited by using the same AI robot drivers but different engineering teams building the cars.

Why would a battle bewteen drivers be more entertaining than a battle between drivers+makers?

I understand the feeling. And many seasons a pretty boring because one car is just so dominating that it's a walk in the park for the driver to get the championship. But when teams get closer on performance, there's some aspects that are particular to it, like one car adapts better to a kind of circuit than the other, and this makes the championship swing for one side or the other. There's a kind of charming on not having this general equilibrium (that we see in many American sports). It much like La Liga or Premier League, where you have always 2-3 front-runners and the rest seems just acting in a supporting role.

ealexhudson 4y ago

Each car has a very different setup for each driver, and may well be designed differently for the drivers the teams have - who may have quite different driving styles and preferences. Being able to optimize both together is quite important for the series.

originalvichy 4y ago

One of the commentators likes to yse this line: the only things that are interchangeable between the top 3 teams’ cars are brake lights and tyres. Yet week in week out they are separated by less than 0,3 seconds to the finish line. The teams have gone through a great filter that makes the barrier of entry pretty limited, but there definitely is a place for the engineering battle side of F1.

cheeze 4y ago
> week in week out they are separated by less than 0,3 seconds to the finish line I don't think that's true though, at least not this year. Separation this year has generally either been "within 1 second, or about 20" and seems to be every other race. I think the closest gap this season has been ~.5 seconds, but many races have been somewhere between 5 and 20 seconds. And that's only considering the podium spots. Generally we see the top 1-3 teams dominate, with the feeder/mid pack teams all being 20+ seconds behind. Look at Azerbaijan, 4th place was over a _minute_ behind first place. I love f1 but it's been many years since I've felt like the sport was truly competitive. This year is way better than previous years now that Mercedes isn't in a rocket ship, but it's still just a Ferrari Red Bull battle (with Ferrari reliability and management biting them in the ass race after race)
- originalvichy 4y ago
  I should clarify that I was talking about qualifying pace which is a good indicator of raw speed.

topicseed 4y ago

You seem to see it as an individual sport, drivers fighting each other. It is, in fact, a team sport. Man + Machine + Engineers!

MomoXenosaga 4y ago
I see it as an unequal fight. May the wealthiest win. Although that is not just a F1 problem of course. You see it in football too. I think the new rules on budget are a great way to recalibrate the sport.
- antihero 4y ago
  Complete equality is unattainable unless I guess you birthed all the drivers from the same DNA into a test tube and controlled every aspect of their training and development. You have to draw the line somewhere and in F1 the team is within that line.
  - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
    > unless I guess you birthed all the drivers from the same DNA into a test tube and controlled every aspect of their training and development. I'd watch that movie.
- _yb2s 4y ago
  You have to have virtually unlimited money to play, but money doesn't solve the engineering problems themselves... you still have to design and build a superior vehicle than the other teams that also have virtually unlimited funds. Having had the lucky opportunity to work as an engineer on projects with nearly unlimited budgets, it was shocking to me how little having unlimited funds really helped... I often felt a nagging feeling that I could have done nearly as well with a small budget. Perhaps money can buy creative solutions for the person with the money, but when you're the engineer they hired, that's not the experience you have. Money can also hire the "best" race car driver, but when you're that driver, you then have to figure out how to drive even faster... the money doesn't drive the car. edit: you might appreciate 24 hours of lemons - a car race with a $500 budget limit https://24hoursoflemons.com/ https://24hoursoflemons.com/

CocaKoala 4y ago

One of the things I think is really neat about F1, and which doesn't show up in any other sports that I'm aware of aside from other types of motor racing, is that F1 isn't one competition - it's two separate competitions running in parallel. The first competition is the obvious one: The drivers all want to be the fastest driver and get the most points in the driver's championship. The second competition is similarly obvious: The constructors all want to have built the fastest car, and get the most points in the constructor's championship. But crucially, these two competitions can't exist without each other! The drivers can't be fast if they have a good car, and the best cars won't be fast unless there's a driver who really understands how to wring the most performance out of it sitting behind the wheel. So there's this constant (and in my opinion, fascinating) tension where the constructors are trying to build a) fast cars, but also b) cars that their current drivers can effectively use and the drivers are trying to a) drive the car fast but also b) find the constructor who will build a car that can go fast and is suited to their driving style. In other sports there's some amount of equipment preference (e.g. different golfers have different brands of clubs, different tennis players might use different brands of rackets or different shoes), but the equipment manufacturers aren't literally competing with other manufacturers - they're just trying to supply an industry. So if you give everybody the same car, then yes - it becomes a transparent display of driver skill, but that doesn't necessarily make the race better, because now you've lost half of the competition. F1 (and motor racing) history is full of bits where somebody managed to figure out something neat about aerodynamics, stuck a new part on their car, and then _lied to everybody else about what it was_ so that nobody would be able to figure out why their car had gotten so fast; the ground effect lotus '78 comes to mind, as does the discovery of the gurney flap.

DRW_ 4y ago

Why? There are other sports for that. F1 is cool because it's multidimensional and a proper team sport in many regards. People building the car, supporting the race, strategy, supporting the teams building the cars, the drivers, etc. Some teams have over 1000 people behind them and you can see weaknesses and strengths in those teams across a number of areas.

RantyDave 4y ago
I've been watching quite a lot recently and it strikes me that choosing when to change the tyres and how well you subsequently pull it off is a large proportion of actually winning.

ajoseps 4y ago

that's the IndyCar

timdellinger 4y ago

do you "get" BattleBots? Teams build a robot, and then they compete in a combat arena against other teams' robots. The design and build and strategy are as important as the person controlling the robot.

Hellbanevil 4y ago

is_true 4y ago

It's a battle between engineers + a driver + a pit crew + other drivers If you want to "get it" go to the F1 subreddit, if you like data analysis you'll like it.

pmontra 4y ago

A friend living in the USA told me many years ago: in the USA companies compete to the death and sport is managed with a kind of non aggression pact. In Europe it's the opposite. Sport is where you outspend and destroy the opponents and work is where you get along with the others. And more to the point. As Italian I can't care less about the drivers. All I want to see is Ferrari winning. Who drives it is an implementation detail, human, AI, remote control, it's the same.

MomoXenosaga 4y ago
I realize most people don't give a shit. PSG fans don't care that they are winning because of wealthy oil sheikhs they just want to win. The how is irrelevant. Outspending and destroying the opponent is too boring for me. You already know Haas will never be on the podium.
- pmontra 4y ago
  They got close. A 4th and 5th position in Austria in 2018, their best season so far. A 5th this year in the opening race.

TheCondor 4y ago

The drivers are the side show, it's a battle between constructors.

_ea1k 4y ago

TBH, I suspect a lot of us here would be more excited by using the same AI robot drivers but different engineering teams building the cars.