5 ms·

Totally democratic. Of course. Europeans love it. From Berlin xHainers to Parissienne Bobos, from Munich Schwabing to Noord Amsterdam, there isn't a single cit

Totally democratic. Of course. Europeans love it. From Berlin xHainers to Parissienne Bobos, from Munich Schwabing to Noord Amsterdam, there isn't a single citizen in the EU with discomfort of his vote becoming dilluted from a x-millionth to an x-hundredmillionth. That's why Ursula von der Leyen is so popular.

malermeister 4y ago
But thats just... yknow, how democracies work. More voters = less power/vote. Are you just unhappy the electorate is so large? What would the appropriate size be? Mayoral? Households? That'd really maximize the power of your vote. But then, how would we organize at the level beyond that? Warring tribes? Go back to when Germany and France were constantly at war? I don't love vdL either. I think the EU is in need of reform. But I still think it's fundamentally a good idea and I think vote dilution is just inherent to a large democracy.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  The appropriate solution would be to reduce the power of the institutions, ideally down to the individual level and allow corporations to provide the services citizens need. Vote with your money, don't dictate the rest of the country with your wants.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    The thing about voting with your money is that rich people get a lot of votes that way while the poor get neglected. In other words, it's antidemocratic.
- potatototoo99 4y ago
  There's not much democracy in the EU, and that's by design. I'm only surprised they haven't got rid of the ability of countries to secede the union yet. I'm guessing all these pushes for further integration are an attempt at de facto making it impossible to secede, even if not legally.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    > There's not much democracy in the EU, and that's by design. [citation needed]. Please don't just throw out wild claims without any proof. As far as I'm aware, every single element of the EU is democratically legitimized in one way or another. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? > I'm only surprised they haven't got rid of the ability of countries to secede the union yet. Why would they? If you don't want to be on our boat, feel free to sink on your own. We don't need the dead weight.
  - timeon 4y ago
    > and that's by design. And that design is there to keep sovereignty of membership countries - so it is strange that you are surprised that there is still the ability of countries to secede the union. Most powerful entities in EU are national governments of countries. Who is appointing Commissioners? Member states. Similar like national governments are appointing its ministers. Then there is veto and of course, who has last word in everything? Heads of states / prime ministers.
    - rjzzleep 4y ago
      Ah yeah, just like how Von der Leyen, Macron said that they want to abolish the consensual vote, when Hungary didn't play along with sanctions being a landlocked country. Totally democratic and totally designed to keep sovereignty.
      - toyg 4y ago
        Macron can say what he wants, he has not written any treaty yet. The Hungarian government is still free to act as they see fit. This said, majority-rule can only increase in European mechanisms, because a continent cannot be paralized by the needs of a tiny minority on every possible choice. Does the US Senate (effectively the equivalent of EuroCouncil, with almost-equal representation for each US state) require unanimity on every choice? Obviously not, or it would never get anything done (and even like that, it struggles massively to approve anything these days).
illiac786 4y ago
Diluted? EU has significantly more power than any single country. More than the sum of the power of each country taken individually. Hence, mathematically, your vote has more power in the EU.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  When your vote has a very large denominator it's worthless. You have no chance to influence anything. Democracy is a scam, it's just an oligarchy. The wealthiest will do media campaigns to manipulate the public into electing their people and then these people will do whatever the elite want.
  - illiac786 4y ago
    Large power of EU = very large nominator, more than compensating for the larger denominator. That was my point above. "Democracy is a scam" = trolling, please refer to the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "The wealthiest will do media campaigns to manipulate the public" => that I agree with, but this is really old and has always been like that, not only in democracies. I'd even say that democracies are the places where this is happening the least, compares to state-owned news like Russia or China.

malermeister 4y ago

But thats just... yknow, how democracies work. More voters = less power/vote. Are you just unhappy the electorate is so large? What would the appropriate size be? Mayoral? Households? That'd really maximize the power of your vote. But then, how would we organize at the level beyond that? Warring tribes? Go back to when Germany and France were constantly at war? I don't love vdL either. I think the EU is in need of reform. But I still think it's fundamentally a good idea and I think vote dilution is just inherent to a large democracy.

jokethrowaway 4y ago
The appropriate solution would be to reduce the power of the institutions, ideally down to the individual level and allow corporations to provide the services citizens need. Vote with your money, don't dictate the rest of the country with your wants.
- malermeister 4y ago
  The thing about voting with your money is that rich people get a lot of votes that way while the poor get neglected. In other words, it's antidemocratic.
potatototoo99 4y ago
There's not much democracy in the EU, and that's by design. I'm only surprised they haven't got rid of the ability of countries to secede the union yet. I'm guessing all these pushes for further integration are an attempt at de facto making it impossible to secede, even if not legally.
- malermeister 4y ago
  > There's not much democracy in the EU, and that's by design. [citation needed]. Please don't just throw out wild claims without any proof. As far as I'm aware, every single element of the EU is democratically legitimized in one way or another. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? > I'm only surprised they haven't got rid of the ability of countries to secede the union yet. Why would they? If you don't want to be on our boat, feel free to sink on your own. We don't need the dead weight.
- timeon 4y ago
  > and that's by design. And that design is there to keep sovereignty of membership countries - so it is strange that you are surprised that there is still the ability of countries to secede the union. Most powerful entities in EU are national governments of countries. Who is appointing Commissioners? Member states. Similar like national governments are appointing its ministers. Then there is veto and of course, who has last word in everything? Heads of states / prime ministers.
  - rjzzleep 4y ago
    Ah yeah, just like how Von der Leyen, Macron said that they want to abolish the consensual vote, when Hungary didn't play along with sanctions being a landlocked country. Totally democratic and totally designed to keep sovereignty.
    - toyg 4y ago
      Macron can say what he wants, he has not written any treaty yet. The Hungarian government is still free to act as they see fit. This said, majority-rule can only increase in European mechanisms, because a continent cannot be paralized by the needs of a tiny minority on every possible choice. Does the US Senate (effectively the equivalent of EuroCouncil, with almost-equal representation for each US state) require unanimity on every choice? Obviously not, or it would never get anything done (and even like that, it struggles massively to approve anything these days).

illiac786 4y ago

Diluted? EU has significantly more power than any single country. More than the sum of the power of each country taken individually. Hence, mathematically, your vote has more power in the EU.

jokethrowaway 4y ago
When your vote has a very large denominator it's worthless. You have no chance to influence anything. Democracy is a scam, it's just an oligarchy. The wealthiest will do media campaigns to manipulate the public into electing their people and then these people will do whatever the elite want.
- illiac786 4y ago
  Large power of EU = very large nominator, more than compensating for the larger denominator. That was my point above. "Democracy is a scam" = trolling, please refer to the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "The wealthiest will do media campaigns to manipulate the public" => that I agree with, but this is really old and has always been like that, not only in democracies. I'd even say that democracies are the places where this is happening the least, compares to state-owned news like Russia or China.