7 ms·

You just have a very US centric view. Here's the situation in Latvia: Full, searchable (by government institutions) digital registry of citizens. Your income is

You just have a very US centric view. Here's the situation in Latvia: Full, searchable (by government institutions) digital registry of citizens. Your income is being recorded for tax purposes. There's centralised data on what vehicles you own, and firearms are registered too. Medical data is also being centralised, to handle prescriptions digitally, and share test results between labs and doctors. Any criminal offences are centrally registered too. The information is there, and most likely being cross-referenced already. What this would add is a more comprehensive log of where proof of identity has been used. In my case, the last non-digital, non-already-trackable request to display proof of identity was last summer, when I was trying to buy a case of beer with a mask, sunglasses and a hat completely obscuring my face. Guess the police will now know I visit grocery stores. What's more, that's already been sort of centralised, with a single identity broker latvija.lv being run by the government, that then relies on other "blessed" identity sources such as banks or digital signature providers. The logs on who requested the identity verification and who got verified are surely there. If they cut the banks out of the loop, I see that as a net positive. As for me, I'm not overly bothered by this. I trust the government to not wilfully abuse the data far, far more than I trust any for-profit entity.

RalfWausE 4y ago
This is the problem: You have to trust the government. I, as a german trust Scholz only as far as i can throw him... and as i am a pencil necked hacker this isn't far
maxwell 4y ago
> You just have a very [U.S.] centric view. [...] I trust the [Latvian/EU] government to not wilfully [sic] abuse the data [sic] far, far more than I trust any for-profit entity. If unclear why no one in the U.S. trusts federal, state, or local governments: * The U.S. federal government now mostly acting in service of for-profit entities, due to legalized bribery of elected officials (Citizens United) and inadequate representation (the Judiciary Act of 1869 for the Supreme Court and the Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929 for the House). * History defeating the most powerful empire in world history, emerging as the first nation to ever overthrow a colonial oppressor. * U.S. law enforcement officers extrajudicially killing more Americans than mass shooters in 2019 and police departments across the country taking in billions USD every year in unconstitutionally seized assets. * More Black Americans in the "justice" system in the 2020s than were enslaved in the 1860s.
- tzs 4y ago
  > More Black Americans in the "justice" system in the 2020s than were enslaved in the 1860s. What do you mean by in the system? I would have guessed it means incarcerated, but there were around 3.9 million slaves in 1860 which is much higher than the number of people incarcerated in the US which is around 2.3 million (Federal, state, and local) of which around 1 million are black.
  - maxwell 4y ago
    I was slightly misciting Michelle Alexander, author of The New Jim Crow (2010), from a presentation she gave in 2011: "More Black men are in prison or jail, on probation or parole than were enslaved in 1850, before the Civil War began" https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/black-men-prison-system https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/bla...
swader999 4y ago
What if Russia were to overtake Latvia in the coming months via direct force or through installing a puppet regime? Trump in 2024 for our American counterparts. Would you be okay with the new masters having all this data and history on you?
- ciupicri 4y ago
  If Russia takes over any country, it's game over anyway like it was after WW2. The lack of an ID won't protect you from rape, robbery, murder, a trip to gulag, etc.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Europeans have a rich history of bad regimes and their removal. It's not like the puppet regime would be like "Oh no, we can't do anything about this person who tweets nasty things about us because we can't look him up in the central registry". It's going to be like "hey Twitter give us the ip address of this person or you loose your money and access to our market" and then they will phone the ISP and tell them to give the ID and address of the user with that ip address. So in reality, central registry of information doesn't really protect you from anything but saves the bad actor a few phone calls. On the other hand, it saves you a lot of phone calls and office visits every time you need to deal with the government. If Russians install a puppet regime, the existence or lack of central registry wont actually change much. It will require popular uprising to make a difference, which Europeans are actually accustomed to. Riots and protests happen all the time everywhere and taking down the governments is a thing too. Of course it depend on the specific country but in general governments in European countries resign all the time and when the refuse to resign despite popular demand they end up removed by riots.
  - swader999 4y ago
    Indeed they do have a rich history of bad regimes. That's kind of the point.
    - M2Ys4U 4y ago
      We've also learned from our history, and created institutions like the ECHR to enforce a minimum standard of human rights against the state, and list more things than "Speech and guns good" like the US.
raverbashing 4y ago
Americans love complaining harshly whenever someone mentions "contry-wide" ID like it's literally the thing of the Devil while ignoring that every other place illegally uses their SSN as an ID number
mrtksn 4y ago
> I trust the government to not wilfully abuse the data far, far more than I trust any for-profit entity. The prime difference between American/British world view and continental European one and I'm loving it. Sure, it's very nice to think that the government doesn't track you and doesn't know where you live. Then they build these giant systems to covertly track everyone and listen to everything. Essentially, everything that the Americans believe that the government wants to do to them is already being done - just clandestinely. On the European approach, we assume that the government is competent enough and is ours, therefore we give them the information needed to provide services and security. If the governments misbehave we will simply burn their palaces and drag them on the streets. IMHO, both approaches have merits and I'm happy that they exist at the same time. It kind of keeps the institutions on track as scandals happen and fixes are implemented in attempt of self preservation.

RalfWausE 4y ago

This is the problem: You have to trust the government. I, as a german trust Scholz only as far as i can throw him... and as i am a pencil necked hacker this isn't far

maxwell 4y ago

> You just have a very [U.S.] centric view. [...] I trust the [Latvian/EU] government to not wilfully [sic] abuse the data [sic] far, far more than I trust any for-profit entity. If unclear why no one in the U.S. trusts federal, state, or local governments: * The U.S. federal government now mostly acting in service of for-profit entities, due to legalized bribery of elected officials (Citizens United) and inadequate representation (the Judiciary Act of 1869 for the Supreme Court and the Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929 for the House). * History defeating the most powerful empire in world history, emerging as the first nation to ever overthrow a colonial oppressor. * U.S. law enforcement officers extrajudicially killing more Americans than mass shooters in 2019 and police departments across the country taking in billions USD every year in unconstitutionally seized assets. * More Black Americans in the "justice" system in the 2020s than were enslaved in the 1860s.

tzs 4y ago
> More Black Americans in the "justice" system in the 2020s than were enslaved in the 1860s. What do you mean by in the system? I would have guessed it means incarcerated, but there were around 3.9 million slaves in 1860 which is much higher than the number of people incarcerated in the US which is around 2.3 million (Federal, state, and local) of which around 1 million are black.
- maxwell 4y ago
  I was slightly misciting Michelle Alexander, author of The New Jim Crow (2010), from a presentation she gave in 2011: "More Black men are in prison or jail, on probation or parole than were enslaved in 1850, before the Civil War began" https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/black-men-prison-system https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/bla...

swader999 4y ago

What if Russia were to overtake Latvia in the coming months via direct force or through installing a puppet regime? Trump in 2024 for our American counterparts. Would you be okay with the new masters having all this data and history on you?

ciupicri 4y ago
If Russia takes over any country, it's game over anyway like it was after WW2. The lack of an ID won't protect you from rape, robbery, murder, a trip to gulag, etc.
mrtksn 4y ago
Europeans have a rich history of bad regimes and their removal. It's not like the puppet regime would be like "Oh no, we can't do anything about this person who tweets nasty things about us because we can't look him up in the central registry". It's going to be like "hey Twitter give us the ip address of this person or you loose your money and access to our market" and then they will phone the ISP and tell them to give the ID and address of the user with that ip address. So in reality, central registry of information doesn't really protect you from anything but saves the bad actor a few phone calls. On the other hand, it saves you a lot of phone calls and office visits every time you need to deal with the government. If Russians install a puppet regime, the existence or lack of central registry wont actually change much. It will require popular uprising to make a difference, which Europeans are actually accustomed to. Riots and protests happen all the time everywhere and taking down the governments is a thing too. Of course it depend on the specific country but in general governments in European countries resign all the time and when the refuse to resign despite popular demand they end up removed by riots.
- swader999 4y ago
  Indeed they do have a rich history of bad regimes. That's kind of the point.
  - M2Ys4U 4y ago
    We've also learned from our history, and created institutions like the ECHR to enforce a minimum standard of human rights against the state, and list more things than "Speech and guns good" like the US.

raverbashing 4y ago

Americans love complaining harshly whenever someone mentions "contry-wide" ID like it's literally the thing of the Devil while ignoring that every other place illegally uses their SSN as an ID number

mrtksn 4y ago

> I trust the government to not wilfully abuse the data far, far more than I trust any for-profit entity. The prime difference between American/British world view and continental European one and I'm loving it. Sure, it's very nice to think that the government doesn't track you and doesn't know where you live. Then they build these giant systems to covertly track everyone and listen to everything. Essentially, everything that the Americans believe that the government wants to do to them is already being done - just clandestinely. On the European approach, we assume that the government is competent enough and is ours, therefore we give them the information needed to provide services and security. If the governments misbehave we will simply burn their palaces and drag them on the streets. IMHO, both approaches have merits and I'm happy that they exist at the same time. It kind of keeps the institutions on track as scandals happen and fixes are implemented in attempt of self preservation.